How should trans identity be treated?

submitted by Throwaway112 from self.GCdebatesQT

Okay, so this is my thoughts on how transgender identity should be treated. My view is informed by reading the experiences of trans and detransitioned people, scientific research, and my own experience (never transgender identified, but an autistic tomboy- I’ll detail some of this later). I am interested in both GC and QT takes on this, and would definitely appreciate input from trans and detrans people with more knowledge of the system than I.

So, currently, if a child IDs as transgender, teachers affirm, parents are supposed to affirm, therapists affirm (as per Keira Bell). There is little to no exploration of the person’s mental health outside of trans identity (thinking autism, depression). All of the people meant to help children and teenagers cope with this disconnect just affirm, they never challenge.

Suicide rates for transgender people are higher after transition, and studies also suggest many cases can resolve without hormones or reassignment, the issue relives itself (to a large enough extent for a person to accept who they are). My thoughts are surely, from step 1, the idea that you are the opposite sex should be gently questioned and challenged. Self-acceptance should be taught and the possibility of other mental health issues complicating the situation explored. If there is no improvement only then should transition be considered. But with this, still teaching that your sex is still male, you are taking steps to socially present as female to alleviate a mental health condition. That does not make you female. (Or vice versa) And that is okay. End of main argument

Okay, so I’m going to give my personal experience in brief, which is my reasoning for engaging with these issues as I know there are more like me. Feel free to skip :) I am autistic and a tomboy. When I was very young, I said it would be better to be a boy quite often. My family laughed it off. I guess this just wore off with me. Around 14/15, a lot of tomboys start becoming more ‘feminine’ as puberty progresses. I didn’t. I was a tomboy at 6, still a tomboy at 16, and I will be at 66. I’m perfectly happy with my female body. I’m now 27. If I was 10-15 years younger I am certain I’d have been transed. Autistic children can be easily led, and with my entire social circle telling me I was a boy, I’d have ignored my parents (who would have firmly but kindly told me I am a girl). I’d have given myself up to a life of medicalisation. I’d probably be depressed right now. I’d have ruined my life.

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[–]BiologyIsReal 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I see gender identity as a religious belief because you can't prove its existence, just like souls. Also the behaviour of some transactivists resemble that of religious zealots. I believe in freedom of religion. You can believe you're the opposite sex is you want, but other people should not be forced to share this belief. Enshrining gender identity in law is putting a end to the separation between state and church. Also, like creationism, gender identity should not have place in science.

And as regards to clinical matters, I don't know of any other psicological issue that is treated the same way gender dysphoria is. We don't encourage anorexic people to get a liposuction nor we tell schizofrenic people the voices they hear are real, for example.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And as regards to clinical matters, I don't know of any other psicological issue that is treated the same way gender dysphoria is.

This. I cannot think of any other circumstances where even complete strangers are expected to participate so heavily in the “treatment” of someone with a psychological issue. So much is demanded of everyone else, so much guilt tripping and gaslighting etc, so much pressure and invasive measures, it’s insane to me that this is really happening. I have tried so hard to understand how this is the reality of the situation. Like, women and girls are really losing their rights and spaces and people are really being guilted and silenced for speaking honestly about sex and sexuality so that an incredibly minute percentage of people don’t have to accept reality. It’s fucking wild to me. I don’t think it can be sustained but it’s being pushed as far as it can and it’s just unbelievable.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

As an identity. Something the individual feels and that has no bearing on other people or on objective reality. Basically like a personal philosophy or faith

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly I think it should be treated like a mental illness. transitioning should be a last resort, after attempting to work through the mental health aspect. If people really want to transition, they should have to understand that it means nothing and changes nothing, and it’s only intent should be to alleviate dysphoria. They shouldn’t be demanding access to spaces meant for the opposite sex (specifically males), they shouldn’t be allowed to lie on legal documents, they shouldn’t demand anything other than the same human rights and protections everyone else has, and the ideology behind it should be treated just as any other ideology (at least where I live, I’m sure some countries can force religion but those places likely have less issues with trans ideology, I’d assume?)- they can practice it all they want but can’t demand shit from people who don’t believe.

Maybe that’s harsh, but it’s the only way to protect female rights, stop the extreme homophobia found rampant in the trans community, and stop the whole “if you don’t agree to and accept whatever I say/demand, you’re a bigot who deserves to be harassed and possibly lose your job” thing we’ve currently got going

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Trans identity should be treated like gender nonconformity is treated: it's gender expression.

Transgenderism is gender nonconformity taken too seriously (sociopolitically and legally) and too far (medically and cosmetically).

Trans identity should only be important to individuals, not to other people (society).

Transgenderism is a combination of body integrity identity disorder and body modification (typically stemming from internalized hatred of some sort).

Trans identity is the current capitalistic exploitation. Trans people will have to spend 6(+) figures during their trans lifetimes in order to be happy.

[–]SilverSlippers 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think some people do have genuine dysphoria and they should receive medical treatment, however I don't think that transition should ever be the first option.

I do think that some kind of research needs to be done on the dramatic increase in dysphoria cases in young girls, its definitely troubling and shouldn't be written off as "them finding themselves" or whatever.

Being trans typically involves costly surgeries and unstudied hormone therapies, which makes trans issues VERY different from gay issues and they need to be separated. Gay people want to live their lives and love who they love, no elaborate medicalization required.

People need to stop getting upset at reality. I saw an argument on FB where someone was called "transphobic" for calling themselves a "biological woman" and that they should, instead, call themselves a "cis woman" (I don't even really like calling myself a 'cis woman'. I'm guessing 'natal woman' would be transphobic too). There argument was that by saying they were a biological woman, that transwomen were not really women. The vast majority of trans people are do not have intersex disorders; they are otherwise normal males and females. Its not hateful to discuss reality. Transwomen may wish they were biologically female; that doesn't make it so. I wish I was 4 inches taller and 20 pounds lighter, doesn't make it so and its not hate to point out my real height and weight. I'll call people by their chosen name and pronouns, but I'm not going to participate in the delusion of acting like they really are the sex they wish they were.

Biological women (and men) have sex-based rights and a right to single-sex spaces; segregated by sex, not gender identity. That doesn't mean all spaces need to be separated based on sex, just that they should exist. Victims of DV have the right to single-sex shelters if that is where they feel most comfortable.

I honestly have probably gone more to the right on this issue over the years. I first thought it was just that people wanted to identify one way but acknowledged that it wasn't reality and just wanted access to basic necessities and job protection (which I'm still for, no one should be kicked out of their home or job for being trans).

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The most important thing is to clarify the facts - that you cannot "transition" into whichever sex you want, and that if you want to go through a lot of money and difficult medical procedures to cosmetically mimic the other sex, you are causing serious and long term consequences for yourself. We should stop calling it "transition" or "reassignment" or "affirmation" since that really makes it sound like you can switch to the other team or something. It's deep cosmetic surgery.

Generally I'd agree with your approach in terms of therapeutic methods, but what really matters is clarity of what the options and risks are...

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Welcome!

So I feel like the push towards affirmation has been bad. When I was growing up and transitioning, I was not affirmed at all for a long time. I felt like it was me pushing against nearly everyone else for years before that changed. There things that happen with me growing up that weren’t good, but I feel like automatic affirmation is worse (I eventually did get good help). Transitioning should be a last resort when nothing else helps. I feel like if someone persists for long enough despite not being affirmed and other possible causes have been fully explored, I feel like there is a time to let the person transition since it seems like the only thing that will help. My parents didn’t want me to for a long time, but eventually consented to treatment because it had persisted for so long and they accepted me as their daughter and stopped trying to change me. I also feel like social transition should come first before anything medical so you know what life will be like, good or bad.

I feel like there is a lot of harm being done because affirmation pushes kids towards transition, many of whom would have outgrown it otherwise and grown up to be comfortable with their bodies. Many of the bad outcomes to me are because people never should have done that and in previous times, they wouldn’t have been treated medically. I wish “trans rights” could be focused on abolishing gender roles and stereotypes. That the thing I would most want to change for kids like me because, whether we end up transitioning or not, it makes everything harder.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender identity is just the name that was chosen to describe a mental illness in an attempt to de-pathologize it, or a belief in a gender soul, or part of your personality/preferences.

When it' s a mental illness, it should be treated (not affirmed), and as a medical issue, it should be researched instead of having anyone who attempts to do it criticized or stopped. When it' s a belief, it' s no different than any other belief, which means that everyone should have the right to believe in it, but it shouldn' t be used to legislate on the rest of the planet and more importantly, nobody should be forced to respect it. When it' s personality/preferences... it' s a fashion choice, do what you want, but again it should' t be legislated on besides giving people the right to wear what they want.

In all cases, nobody should be forced, pressured, threatened or blackmailed into playing along.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

People should not be forced to change themselves because you do not agree with their conception of themselves.

Yes, this also goes for people who want to remove a limb or something like that.

Suicide rates r higher than gen pop after transition, but not higher than trans ppl before transition, iirc.

For someone who really is dysphoric and wants to transition, it's part of who we are, it's not separable from our sense of self. So conversion therapy to try and change how we feel about our sex should never be forced, only if someone wants to undergo it.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Allow people to present and use whatever name they want whenever. Exploration is healthy and if you believe most people naturally desist, just saying do what you want and letting them explore will then let that play out.

Hormones should be cheap and available to any Adult who wants them as a matter of bodily autonomy. Surgery should be affordable and available to anyone with diagnosed genital dysphoria because it won’t improve without surgery.

Dedicated protections for things like public accommodations, housing, and employment are necessary.

Ideally dedicated neutral or trans specific spaces should be put in place if there is objection to us using spaces that fit our identities because trans women cannot be made safe in men’s spaces and you can’t go through life without using a bathroom.

Other things come piecemeal. I don’t think trans women can engage in sports workably for instance.

I think it’s extremely hurtful and rude to misgender a trans person but isn’t something that should necessarily be illegal as long as it doesn’t become patterned harassment.