All: Can homophobic slurs be reclaimed by non-LGB people? Are all trans people allowed to reclaim homophobic slurs for themselves?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You asked

If a person's gnc behavior or expression lead to them being called homophobic slurs, would they be in the right to reclaim those slurs if they actually weren't LGB?

In this framing, you blamed a person being called homophobic slurs on his or her "gnc behavior or expression," not on the sexist prejudices of those who doled out the slurs.

Then you suggested it's legitimate to assume that being "LGB" is the same as being "gnc" in most cases, whilst also saying that there are individuals who are "gnc" but not "LGB."

What seems to be beyond your notice is the fact that over the course of history the majority of "LGB" people always blended in with the rest of the population in terms of dress, grooming, mannerisms and public behaviors. In other words, historically across cultures most "LGB" people have not been obviously "gnc" in everyday public life.

Sorry, as someone born in the mid-1950s, I grew up around lots of women who were "spinsters" or in "Boston marriages" and men who were "lifelong bachelors" who lived alone or "roomed with" other men, but who otherwise appeared entirely "ordinary." In my adult life, I have known many lesbians, gay men and bisexual people who in most people's eyes appear to be run-of-the-mill men and women with typical sexual orientation. As a result, I don't equate homosexuality with being demonstrably, performatiively, or theatrically "gnc."

Nor do I think that all/most animus expressed towards homosexual people today and in the past has been and is because most homosexual men and women have always been and now are "gnc."

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

OK, I see--thank you for elucidating! edit: After a bit more thought, I'll address what appears to be extrapolating on my question:

What seems to be beyond your notice is the fact that over the course of history the majority of "LGB" people always blended in with the rest of the population in terms of dress, grooming, mannerisms and public behaviors. In other words, historically across cultures most "LGB" people have not been obviously "gnc" in everyday public life

That wasn't really what my question was about, so I didn't feel this point was really necessary to bring up in the discussion. Of course many if not most LGB people have always and will always blend in with non-LGB people. But it's an important reminder for everyone, thank you for sharing!

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

But you seem to be suggesting that only people who publicly display "gnc behavior or expression" are subjected to homophobic slurs, discrimination and abuse.

This is not true. The numbers of "gender conforming" and "gender non-conforming" gay men and lesbians who have have been subjected to such slurs and abuse are probably equal.

Moreover, straight and bi people have been, and are, subjected to homophobic slurs as well.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

you seem to be suggesting that only people who publicly display "gnc behavior or expression" are subjected to homophobic slurs, discrimination and abuse.

I think you're reading a bit into what I'm saying, there really is no suggestion of that. I just didn't mention non-gnc people.

Moreover, straight and bi people have been, and are, subjected to homophobic slurs as well.

This is what my question is addressing and what I'm curious about everyone's thoughts are on this :)

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Then why was your OP exclusively about whether a male who is sexually attracted to other males and

grew up being called "f-gg-t" and things like that

should be able to "reclaim" that homophonic slur "for herself"?

You said

Some people would see her (the male sexually attracted to other males) as a man, therefore gay, and some would see her as a woman, therefore straight.

You mentioned no one else. Coz you don't seem to see anyone else beyond your own narrow demographic. Historically and today, homophobia has been and is directed at all sorts of people of both sexes, not just to "gnc" and trans-identifying males like yourself.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't really know what to tell you. I'm genuinely not trying to upset or confuse you, or anyone else. Again, I think you're reading much too far into what I asked and seem to be trying to focus on how my wording reflects on me, my beliefs and the way I think rather than focusing on the actual questions themselves.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I don't really know what to tell you. I'm genuinely not trying to upset or confuse you, or anyone else

I never suggested you were trying to upset or confuse me or anyone else. I'm simply pointing out what in my view are flaws in your thinking and blind spots in your framing and perspective. Seems to me that you want license and approval to call yourself a woman (a word that means "adult human female") whilst simultaneously "reclaiming" slurs against homosexual males specifically. Which to me smacks of best of both worlds, male privilege and sexism.

Your charge that I am

reading much too far into what I asked

rings hollow to me. After all, you posed your question on an internet debate forum presumably of your own free will. No one forced you to do this. Nor did I or any other person who has, or will, comment in response make you use the language and framing you chose. That's on you.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I was asking for others' opinions on how they feel about reclaiming slurs. I never stated nor inferred an opinion on the matter myself.

Obviously you can and will interpret my words however you will. We certainly don't have to have a discussion if you'd rather make assumptions.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry, not buying it. In your thread title you asked,

Are all trans people able to reclaim homophobic slurs for themselves?

However, in your OP you didn't speak of "all trans people." Rather, you spoke exclusively of persons of "gnc behavior or expression" who are male and same-sex attracted. The one and only example you gave was of

a transwoman who was exclusively attracted to men grew up being called "f-gg-t" and things like that

Which ignores the fact that most of the male persons known as "transwomen" are heterosexuals or bisexuals who did not grow up at all "gnc" in behavior, expression, thinking or

being called "f-gg-t" and things like that

In your OP that you set up as being about "all trans people," you didn't just ignore the fact that most male persons who call themselves trans are heterosexuals who grew up entirely "gender conforming," many to the point where they were seen as models of super-masculinity - you also completely overlooked the huge number of "all trans people" today who are female.

Finally, you've ignored that many people past and present who've been subjected to homophobic slurs and other forms of homophobic abuse are/were neither trans or "gnc" - and some aren'/weren't homosexual or bisexual, they/we were just seen that way by some prejudiced, sexist and abusive people.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I forget this is a debate sub rather than just a discussion or Q&A sub, so I can understand why you're looking for points to challenge or criticize. I'm really only interested in answers to my questions, though, I'm sorry. I thought you needed clarity on the questions and my wording, but I see that you're looking for debate, not clarity. And judging by everyone else's straight-forward answers, I suppose my questions, title and post were clearer than I'm giving myself credit for. Thank you for sharing your unique perspective!