All: Can homophobic slurs be reclaimed by non-LGB people? Are all trans people allowed to reclaim homophobic slurs for themselves?

submitted by [deleted] from self.GCdebatesQT

This kind of came up in my GC & trans activist group, so I thought I would ask for perspective and thoughts here, too.

If a person's gnc behavior or expression lead to them being called homophobic slurs, would they be in the right to reclaim those slurs if they actually weren't LGB?

In a similar vein, different people view trans sexuality differently. So, if a transwoman who was exclusively attracted to men grew up being called "f-gg-t" and things like that, would it be acceptable for her to reclaim that slur for herself? Some people would see her as a man, therefore gay, and some would see her as a woman, therefore straight.

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[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personally, I don't believe in reclaiming slurs. I don't think is a good strategy to fight against prejudice. I think if you want to change language you need to change the culture that create those slurs. Trying to change the culture through language, either by reclaiming slurs or imposing politically correct terms, doesn't work, IMO.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's an interesting perspective, thank you for sharing!

[–]PassionateIntensity 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

If they were slurs used against you, personally like in your transwoman example, yes I think you can use it. What I've seen commonly instead is FTMs attracted to men using the F slur nonstop about gay men and themselves. MTFs using lesbian slurs the same way. I don't think that's reclaiming, I think it's just homophobia.

I've also come around to not being a fan of "reclaiming" because I just don't see it working. It makes the slur more common and creates community in-fighting. (The arguments I have had about the Q word...) If you want to "strip the power" from a word...make it extinct.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing, I especially like and agree with what you said at the end!

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If a transwoman has such an allegedly female identity, why would it be okay for them to call themselves a slur used against gay men? Seems like if they really thought they were women they’re just being homophobic and claiming it’s ok because...? They’re not gender normative? Sexist and homophobic double whammy.

Slurs are gross and imo it’s gross to perpetuate them as a cute funny reclaimed name. Being called a dyke for my clothing choices never made me wanna embrace the term as a somewhat gnc woman. It just made me resent the idea that lesbians are inferior people who have a dress code.

It doesn’t appear to do anything to stop the slur from being used as a slur, or more importantly, to quell the ideas that lead to the slurs being used.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Interesting take, thank you for sharing!

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

I don't think slagging off individuals or groups by calling them names or slurs is cool whatever the intent. IMO, most of the people who advocate "reclaiming" and repurposing slurs are puerile and unsophisticated in their thinking.

If a person's gnc behavior or expression lead to them being called homophobic slurs, would they be in the right to reclaim those slurs if they actually weren't LGB?

I think you are presenting things backwards. You're saying that being subjected to homophobic verbal abuse is the result of individuals' "gnc behavior or expression" (whatever "gnc" is supposed to mean). When, in fact, homophobic abuse is the result of the fucked-up, intolerant, sexist thinking of those who spout such abuse.

IMO, the onus for homophobic slurs and abuse needs to be placed firmly on the people who spout such slurs and commit such abuse, not on the recipients.

BTW, some people who have been subjected to homophobic slurs and abuse over time have not been either homosexual or "gnc" in dress, grooming style, mannerisms and other superficial aspects of appearance and affect.

For example, other people have used homophobic slurs pertaining to lesbians against me personally for more than 55 years. Mostly on account of my feminist ideas, writings, actions, outspokenness and friendships and alliances - not because I had a particularly "gnc" look or mannerisms (though by current rigid standards, the youth of today might view my "presentation" and behaviors in the past and now as "gnc.")

I also think it's relevant that some of the worst homophobic abuse I've gotten in my life has been from a few homosexual people. For example, in 6th grade (age 11-12) I was subjected to a severe bullying campaign for supposedly being a lesbian that was started and sustained by a female classmate and former close friend trying to deflect her own and other people's attention from recognizing that she herself was a lesbian. (Many decades later, she and I reconnected and she apologized.)

In recent years, a number of homosexual males and females and het and bi ones too who hew to currently-fashionable sex stereotypes have slagged me off for failing to conform to their sexist, ageist ideas of what "real women" should look like, sound like, behave like and think like. These people think that surgically-altered male people like Blair White, Gigi Gorgeous and Munroe Bergdorf are much more "real women" than I and my peers are coz these males have painted acrylic nails, long hair, "girly" mannerisms, they take exogenous estrogen, and they've undergone medical procedures to feminize their faces, remove their beards and implant orb-shaped sacs of fluid or gel into their chests.

Significantly, the homophobic verbal abuse I've had hurled at me has been dished out with no regard for my actual sexual orientation or pattern of IRL sexual relationships. At the same time, though, some homosexual males who ID as "trans" have called me all sorts of disgusting names because I've borne children.

I also don't understand what you mean by "LGB" here. Coz you seem to be endorsing the muddying of the waters that gender ideologues promote by saying

if a transwoman who was exclusively attracted to men grew up being called "f-gg-t" and things like that, would it be acceptable for her to reclaim that slur for herself? Some people would see her as a man, therefore gay, and some would see her as a woman, therefore straight.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

I also don't understand what you mean by "LGB" here.

I guess the question was about if specifically homophobic slurs are used against non-LGB people, and whether it's in their right to reclaim those words if they're non-LGB but have been slurred those terms. I'm not really sure I understand what it is that you're saying gender ideologues promote, though.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

You asked

If a person's gnc behavior or expression lead to them being called homophobic slurs, would they be in the right to reclaim those slurs if they actually weren't LGB?

In this framing, you blamed a person being called homophobic slurs on his or her "gnc behavior or expression," not on the sexist prejudices of those who doled out the slurs.

Then you suggested it's legitimate to assume that being "LGB" is the same as being "gnc" in most cases, whilst also saying that there are individuals who are "gnc" but not "LGB."

What seems to be beyond your notice is the fact that over the course of history the majority of "LGB" people always blended in with the rest of the population in terms of dress, grooming, mannerisms and public behaviors. In other words, historically across cultures most "LGB" people have not been obviously "gnc" in everyday public life.

Sorry, as someone born in the mid-1950s, I grew up around lots of women who were "spinsters" or in "Boston marriages" and men who were "lifelong bachelors" who lived alone or "roomed with" other men, but who otherwise appeared entirely "ordinary." In my adult life, I have known many lesbians, gay men and bisexual people who in most people's eyes appear to be run-of-the-mill men and women with typical sexual orientation. As a result, I don't equate homosexuality with being demonstrably, performatiively, or theatrically "gnc."

Nor do I think that all/most animus expressed towards homosexual people today and in the past has been and is because most homosexual men and women have always been and now are "gnc."

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

OK, I see--thank you for elucidating! edit: After a bit more thought, I'll address what appears to be extrapolating on my question:

What seems to be beyond your notice is the fact that over the course of history the majority of "LGB" people always blended in with the rest of the population in terms of dress, grooming, mannerisms and public behaviors. In other words, historically across cultures most "LGB" people have not been obviously "gnc" in everyday public life

That wasn't really what my question was about, so I didn't feel this point was really necessary to bring up in the discussion. Of course many if not most LGB people have always and will always blend in with non-LGB people. But it's an important reminder for everyone, thank you for sharing!

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

But you seem to be suggesting that only people who publicly display "gnc behavior or expression" are subjected to homophobic slurs, discrimination and abuse.

This is not true. The numbers of "gender conforming" and "gender non-conforming" gay men and lesbians who have have been subjected to such slurs and abuse are probably equal.

Moreover, straight and bi people have been, and are, subjected to homophobic slurs as well.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

you seem to be suggesting that only people who publicly display "gnc behavior or expression" are subjected to homophobic slurs, discrimination and abuse.

I think you're reading a bit into what I'm saying, there really is no suggestion of that. I just didn't mention non-gnc people.

Moreover, straight and bi people have been, and are, subjected to homophobic slurs as well.

This is what my question is addressing and what I'm curious about everyone's thoughts are on this :)

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Then why was your OP exclusively about whether a male who is sexually attracted to other males and

grew up being called "f-gg-t" and things like that

should be able to "reclaim" that homophonic slur "for herself"?

You said

Some people would see her (the male sexually attracted to other males) as a man, therefore gay, and some would see her as a woman, therefore straight.

You mentioned no one else. Coz you don't seem to see anyone else beyond your own narrow demographic. Historically and today, homophobia has been and is directed at all sorts of people of both sexes, not just to "gnc" and trans-identifying males like yourself.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I don't really know what to tell you. I'm genuinely not trying to upset or confuse you, or anyone else. Again, I think you're reading much too far into what I asked and seem to be trying to focus on how my wording reflects on me, my beliefs and the way I think rather than focusing on the actual questions themselves.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I don't really know what to tell you. I'm genuinely not trying to upset or confuse you, or anyone else

I never suggested you were trying to upset or confuse me or anyone else. I'm simply pointing out what in my view are flaws in your thinking and blind spots in your framing and perspective. Seems to me that you want license and approval to call yourself a woman (a word that means "adult human female") whilst simultaneously "reclaiming" slurs against homosexual males specifically. Which to me smacks of best of both worlds, male privilege and sexism.

Your charge that I am

reading much too far into what I asked

rings hollow to me. After all, you posed your question on an internet debate forum presumably of your own free will. No one forced you to do this. Nor did I or any other person who has, or will, comment in response make you use the language and framing you chose. That's on you.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I was asking for others' opinions on how they feel about reclaiming slurs. I never stated nor inferred an opinion on the matter myself.

Obviously you can and will interpret my words however you will. We certainly don't have to have a discussion if you'd rather make assumptions.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't feel that strongly about who is allowed to say which word, I think it's more about the context of the person saying it rather than simply who is saying it. Like, if a transman said dyke in a non-disparaging manner, I guess that's fine? But if a transman called himself a dyke I'd think that's wrong, or contradictory at the least.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's a good point about context!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No. And to the second part of your question- hell no.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see how slurs can be re-claimed, especially when those slurs are not used against your group at all.

Will it be fine to "re-claim" the N-word by asian, for example? Asian is person of color in USA, just like T is part of LGBT, so similar situation. It makes no sense like this, right?

Re-claiming agressive slurs is pretty bad thing to do as well, because it just makes usage of slur more wide and not fixing the issue - as it will be re-claimed only in some communities. The "LGBTQ" is not used in some places, because there Q is used as slur to this day, so saying there "LGBTQ as LGBT and queers" is homophobic. Especially if it is like in USA and Canada, when "queers" are mostly heterosexual people. I am finding it as very offensive.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I completely agree with your sentiments. And good point about the usage of "queer", thank you so much for sharing.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I guess I’ll start by saying, I don’t really like reclaiming slurs in general. I feel like it would be better if people would just stop using slurs rather than try to reclaim them, but that’s just how I feel about it and other people can feel differently. Words like this one and other homophobic or misogynistic slurs that have been used to hurt me still make me uncomfortable. I don’t like hearing them, regardless of the context, and couldn’t imagine reclaiming them personally.

Even if I was alright with reclaiming slurs, I don’t feel like it would be appropriate for me to do that with homosexual male slurs. Even if we had similar childhoods, my life experience and challenges are very different than those of gay men. It would be wrong for me to try to speak for gay men so I feel like this would be wrong to do this too.

I feel like the worst thing though is straight or bi trans people, male or female, trying to reclaim slurs. That legitimately upsets me, because, I’m sorry, if you grew up straight I feel like you have no right to use words that hurt us as some sort of accessory to your new identity. I feel like some of them feel the same pleasure from those slurs that the boys and men who said them to me got, but now they have an excuse to say them. It truly makes my blood boil. 😡

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing your perspective, I really appreciate it. I feel similarly about most of what you say.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No way, not in my book. I've been called slurs like "dyke" despite not being lesbian, and I don't think that gives me any right to reclaim it.

I'm also not a fan of slurs being reclaimed. Women who go around saying "slut" and "whore" and "bitch" are reclaimed annoy the fuck out of me. They are still horrible and derogatory words, and I refuse to associate with people who use them.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for sharing, I can see you feel really strongly about this

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ha, no problem. And yeah, I hate slurs with a passion.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here are my thoughts on the concept of reclaiming slurs:

  1. You cannot control how a language develops or make individuals feel a certain way about slurs.

  2. To have some classes of people able to say certain words while others cannot causes more distinction and discomfort between those classes. It goes directly against the goal of seeing others as similar to you.

  3. Slurs that we would consider successfully "reclaimed" are used by everyone in a way that it is no longer a slur. Ex. Queer theory, queer studies, even though it once was an insult. So the usage of the word doesn't depend on the identity of the speaker.

  4. Language is a form of self expression that people should use freely as they wish, not as some kind of collected minority block. Some people are more casual with their friends or have a crass sense of humor. The language they use is negotiated on an individual level, not with the entire population of people who speak the language.