GC: What are the definitions of male and female? How would intersex people fit into binary sex? And is calling the intersex condition a disorder (of sexual development) discriminatory towards intersex people?

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[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So most of us with pernicious anemia do not see it as a disorder, nor do our physicians.

A genetic disorder that would literally kill you because your body attacks cells that are needed for it to function is not a disorder because medicine can keep it at bay?

wat??

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So most of us with pernicious anemia do not see it as a disorder, nor do our physicians.

A genetic disorder that would literally kill you because your body attacks cells that are needed for it to function is not a disorder because medicine can keep it at bay?

wat??

You don't seem to understand that medical science is constantly progressing, and as a result many conditions that once were fatal are now curable. When I was growing up in the 1960s, most cancers were fatal. Now most cancers are treatable and most people with various cancers will go into remission and be considered/declared "cured." In the 1980s, HIV usually progressed to AIDS and was a sure death sentence. Now with medication, HIV is considered a manageable condition with which a person can live in a state of good health for a normal lifespan.

When it was first discovered in the 1970s through the 1990s, severe combined immune deficiency, a form of primary immune deficiency affecting males aka "bubble boy disease," was invariably fatal - and boys with it had to lead very limited lives, as seen in the movie Bubble Boy. But since bone marrow transplants and mandatory testing for SCID at birth became standard, SCID is now caught very early - and if a BMT is given early in a child's life (by age 2), the donor bone marrow takes over and becomes the norm and the child is cured.

Also, re pernicious anemia, it's not "medicine" that keeps it at bay, it's vitamin B12. In much of the world, vitamin B12 for injection - and the needles for it - can be obtained without a doctor's prescription. It's very easy to self-administer the shots. Diagnosis of PA requires "medicine," but treating it does not. This is even more the case today than in the past, coz new oral formulations of B12 specifically for people without parietal cells are now available without prescription (you can get them on Amazon), so now the monthly shots aren't even necessary.

Also, there are lots of conditions, both genetic in origin or acquired or a bit of both, that potentially can be disabling which it's now possible to effectively eliminate once and for all by surgery. Like certain tumors of the eye orbit and certain gynecological conditions.

Without vitamin C, human beings will get scurvy - a potentially fatal disease. Other diseases develop when people don't get sufficient vitamins, calories, nutrients and trace minerals. Do you think everyone should be thought to have nascent or "sleeper" disorders as a result?

Why does this bother you? Why is it important to you that the sorts of conditions under discussion all be labelled "disorders" and that everyone with such conditions be regarded as having something terribly "wrong" with us? What's it to you?

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

So a disorder of the body that would kill you if untreated because your body cannot function normally is no longer considered a disorder just because medicine can keep it from killing you? Just...what??

Now most cancers are treatable and most people with various cancers will go into remission and be considered/declared "cured."

Having to spend a lifetime dealing with a disorder because you'd die a slow and painful death if you didn't does not count as "cured". "Cured" means the problem is no longer there, as in, medical intervention is no longer required for you to function normally. Having a body with a fatal developmental issue that will literally kill you if not compensated for does not mean you are "cured" and that your body doesn't have the disorder anymore, wtf do you think you're taking those injections for if you're "cured"? jfc 🤦

Now with medication, HIV is considered a manageable condition with which a person can live in a state of good health for a normal lifespan.

Right, and now you've got gay men claiming it's acceptable to not tell their partners they have HIV because "it's managable with medicine".

Why does this bother you?

Because putting virtue signalling and feewings over actual physical human reality is how we got to where we are with trans issues in the first place.

Why is it important to you that the sorts of conditions under discussion all be labelled "disorders" and that everyone with such conditions be regarded as having something terribly "wrong" with us?

UUH you do have something wrong with you, your body is literally attacking its own cells that it needs to live because it thinks they're dangerous. THIS IS NOT NORMAL! This isn't some cute character quirk or a different eye colour, it's your body not being able to live without medical intervention because it cannot tell the difference between healthy and problematic cells the way a properly developed human body can. Just because medicine has found a way to deal with this does not suddenly make it disappear, just because medicine can make you feel fine enough to pretend it's not there does not mean it's actually gone. No wonder the trans ideology has gotten such a hold if medicine now subscribes to the "if I close my eyes it can't hurt me" school of though.

Without vitamin C, human beings will get scurvy - a potentially fatal disease. Other diseases develop when people don't get sufficient vitamins, calories, nutrients and trace minerals. Do you think everyone should be thought to have nascent or "sleeper" disorders as a result?

This is completely normal given human biology, because we lack the mechanisms to synthesise vitamin C on our own. That's completely different from an autoimmune disorder where your body has faulty development that makes it think it's coming under attack when it receives vitamin C. One is normal properly developed human anatomy, the other is a developmental issue that is severely affecting your life or quality of life without medical intervention.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No wonder the trans ideology has gotten such a hold if medicine now subscribes to the "if I close my eyes it can't hurt me" school of though.

Huh? Who is saying that? I sure never said anything of the kind. On the contrary, I have been pointing out that with proper treatment, certain physical conditions that once were disabling and a death sentence no longer are. Which is the opposite of arguing, as trans ideology does, that harmful medical interventions - hormone blockers, CSH, surgeries - which diminish physical health and destroy bodily functions should be available on demand for people with psychological problems who are in denial that their issues are mostly "all in their heads" and with society and culture, not with their their bodies.

Having to spend a lifetime dealing with a disorder because you'd die a slow and painful death if you didn't does not count as "cured".

But nowadays a condition like PA doesn't require one to "spend a lifetime dealing" with it, LOL. In the case of PA in particular, it involves self-administering a shot of vitamin B12 once a month, or swallowing oral tablets of the new formulation once a day or once a week. From start to finish, administering B12 by injection takes about 90 seconds a month, 18 minutes a year. Yes, once a year I've gotta order B12 for injection online and put it in the fridge when it arrives. And I have to remember to keep needles on hand, though box of 100 needles lasts more than 8 years. Hardly onerous.

But even if dealing with PA took up a good chunk of my life and energy the way some medical conditions do (including others I've experienced myself), what's it to you? Why are you so determined to be the boss and final arbiter of how people with serious time-involving, life-limiting conditions view their problems and view themselves?

People with serious, legitimate medical conditions requiring tons of medical care have nothing in common with transgender people and the trans lobby. No one is arguing that people with cystic fibrosis, kidney disease requiring frequent dialysis, Parkinson's or any other serious physical illnesses must given whatever medical interventions they want on demand, including treatments that it's been been shown definitely or likely will do them - and society - more harm than good. No one is insisting that scientists should not allowed to research and objectively examine various physical diseases and conditions, or that the general public should not be allowed to discuss them. No one with serious physical conditions is trying to take away the civil rights of others, to get the whole world to deny reality and bend to their will, and demanding that people in good health all redefine themselves in relation to the particular diseases/conditions that small minorities of the population have.

THIS IS NOT NORMAL! This isn't some cute character quirk

Huh? No one who has suffered, or suffers, a serious physical illness or chronic health condition would define them as "cute" or as a "character quirk." For you to imagine and suggest they/we do is extremely offensive.

You seem to view human health in a very simplistic, immature way, dividing people into two black-and-white groups: those who are physically and genetically "normal" and those who are not. You also seem to think that being in 100% perfect health is the human norm. These views speak volumes. They suggest you have very limited "lived experience" and a narrow social circle.

Fact is, lots of people are born with, or develop, all sorts of medical conditions in the course of life, particularly as we age. Yet even so, these conditions don't necessarily dominate our self-perceptions or the way we experience life the way you appear to want them to. Even people who have deformities, disabilities and diseases that are a real cross to bear and very evident to other people - and which require tons of special accommodations and care - do not necessarily regard these aspects of themselves as their defining characteristics the way some outsiders might. Rather, for many people, these aspects of the self tend to fade into the background and become more like wallpaper.

The fact that this bothers you so much that you feel compelled to shout

THIS IS NOT NORMAL!

At people who have a more nuanced view than you makes you sound unhinged, and authoritarian to boot. But go ahead, keep shouting that people who view the very real physical conditions we/they have differently to the way you want us/them to are "denying reality" and are

NOT NORMAL!

Coz the more you holler out such compelling and well-reasoned arguments, the more those pesky, uppity NOT NORMAL people are bound to fall in line and do as you command. Soon enough they'll all surely agree that not seeing reality exactly as you do is the same as not seeing - or facing up to - reality at all.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I have been pointing out that with proper treatment, certain physical conditions that once were disabling and a death sentence no longer are

Which is utterly irrelevant to the fact that the problem exists and that it is a result of faulty physical development. Having to spend a lifetime dealing with a disorder because you'd die a slow and painful death if you didn't does not count as "cured". "Cured" means the problem is no longer there, as in, medical intervention is no longer required for you to function normally. Having a body with a fatal developmental issue that will literally kill you if not compensated for does not mean you are "cured" and that your body doesn't have the disorder anymore, wtf do you think you're taking those injections for if you're "cured"? jfc 🤦

But nowadays a condition like PA doesn't require one to "spend a lifetime dealing" with it, LOL

Just because medicine has found a way to deal with this does not suddenly make it disappear, just because medicine can make you feel fine enough to pretend it's not there does not mean it's actually gone. Reality exists regardless of your feelings and wishful thinking.

the more those pesky, uppity NOT NORMAL people are bound to fall in line and do as you command

Your abnormal development is FATAL. It's not some cute character quirk like a different eye colour, it's something that will kill you if left untreated. I would tell you to get that through your thick skull, but you already know it, because you're taking your medicine on time so why this pity-inducing little game where you pretend like the thing that will literally kill you if untreated got magically whisked away by fairies?

that people in good health all redefine themselves in relation to the particular diseases/conditions that small minorities of the population have.

I like it when you try to form an argument because then I can rip it apart instead of just having to do the usual copy-pasting for people who pretend they get amnesia when someone wipes the floor with them.

I never said that people are divided into "all healthy" and "all disordered". Plenty of people have different kinds of disorders, some minor, some major, some major that don't interfere with anything, some minor that require surgeries or a lifetime on medicine. Most people with disorders have normal bodies in other ways, but a disorder affecting a specific part of their body. None of this changes the reality of what they are experiencing. Their feelings, their wishful thinking, how good they feel from treatment (unless it can be fixed for good, i.e. the disorder doesn't require any further intervention), whether they feel they're a five-headed hydra, it is 100% irrelevant.

Yet even so, these conditions don't necessarily dominate our self-perceptions or the way we experience life the way you appear to want them to.

You keep failing to understand that I don't give a damn if you "perceive" yourself as a five-headed hydra or an attack helicopter or Santa Claus. Your feelings are irrelevant to what is actually happening in reality

For you to imagine and suggest they/we do is extremely offensive.

Oh, great! So you're going to stop with this bullshit that people with life-threatening physical disorders have nothing wrong with them because you feel well after you take your shots and they should just stop defining themselves according to their disorder?

what's it to you? Why are you so determined to be the boss and final arbiter of how people with serious time-involving, life-limiting conditions view their problems and view themselves?

Because putting virtue signalling and feewings over actual physical human reality is how we got to where we are with trans issues in the first place. I am not going to entertain lying and delusional thinking for the sake of not huwting feewings of people who can't deal with the harsh reality of life.

It's kinda funny how I literally already answered most of your questions, but I guess the power of "If I close my eyes it can't hurt me" is just too hard to resist. I mean you've been using it so well as a crux of this entire argument.