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[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

You thought wrong.

How is intersex not a disorder when there is something wrong with the way their chromosomes, and genitals are? How do you define a disorder that intersex doesn't count as a disorder?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How is intersex not a disorder when there is something wrong with the way their chromosomes, and genitals are? How do you define a disorder that intersex doesn't count as a disorder?

Not all DSDs involve atypical sex chromosomes, though most involve a genetic mutation of some kind. Many people have genetic mutations that can cause or contribute to disease and disorders - I know of several that I have personally - but not all people with these mutations develop disease or disorders. Oxford defines a disorder as

an illness or condition that disrupts normal physical or mental functions

But even some illnesses and conditions that once were considered disorders per this description are not seen that way today coz the treatments for them are simple and 100% effective.

For example, I have an inherited, presumably genetic condition called pernicious anemia, that if untreated leads invariably to death - a long, slow and painful death, and which prior to getting to the terminal stage causes people with PA to lose their minds. But with a monthly IM injection of vitamin B-12, which is cheap and easy to self-administer, pernicious anemia is 100% reversed/cured. So most of us with pernicious anemia do not see it as a disorder, nor do our physicians.

Now that genome sequencing is being done for more and more people, it's turning out that genetic mutations that are linked to disease and disorders, but are not always causative of them in every case, are more common than previously assumed:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/one-five-healthy-adults-may-carry-disease-related-genetic-mutations

How is intersex not a disorder when there is something wrong with the way their chromosomes, and genitals are?

You keep revealing that you actually know very little about DSDs. Not all DSDs affect the genitals. Many people with DSDs have typical-looking genitals and/or normally functioning gonads.

Please when you speak of these matters don't use language and framing that lump the two sexes together and make the mistake of assuming that what's true of human males is also true of human females. Only the male gonads, the testes, are considered part of the genitals. Human female gonads, the ovaries, are not external and thus not usually called genitals like the testes are. Whereas testes are between human males' legs, human ovaries are internal organs inside the abdomen at considerable distance from our crotch and genitals, eg our vulvas.

One of the most common conditions that in the past was labelled "intersex" or a DSD is micro-penis, which is a normally functioning male genital organ that is smaller than normal but which functions normally. Most micro-penises and normally developed and function fine; they're just small. Another condition traditionally considered "intersex" and a DSD is hypospadias, a congenital condition where the male urethra opens on the underside of the penis. This doesn't impair a male person's ability to urinate or ejaculate seminal fluid - it just looks odd. And it's easily corrected by surgery.

By far the single most common DSD is congenital adrenal hyperplasia, CAH, which I've read accounts for the majority of ALL DSDs (though I can't find the source at the moment). CAH comes in several different forms - and only the rarest form, known as classical CAH, which can be fatal if it involves salt-wasting, requires treatment and might affects genitals. Yet even classical CAH usually only affects the appearance of female genitals Most males with CAH have normal-looking and functioning genitals. The most common form of CAH is the mild form. Many persons with the mild form have no obvious symptoms.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/congenital-adrenal-hyperplasia/

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I think the condition I meant is the Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome, where there's developed male genitalia and an underdeveloped uterus, vagina, etc. Would that not be considered a disorder?

For the definitions of male or female, when we ask what about someone that surgically removed their gonads, GCs argue they don't stop being male or female eventhough they don't produce gametes, just as someone doesn't stop being human if they amputate their leg.

But is a human defined by the number of legs, hands and fingers though? Are humans defined as a bipedal specie? If a human is defined as an organism with two legs, two hands and 5 fingers, why wouldn't it be correct to say someone born without a leg, or someone who amputated a leg is not a human? They don't meet the definition of human, or the requirement of which is to have exactly two legs, two hands, and 5 fingers

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

For the definitions of male or female, when we ask what about someone that surgically removed their gonads, GCs argue they don't stop being male or female eventhough they don't produce gametes,

So you think girls before menarche and women after menopause are no longer female? I suggest you inform your mother and, if you have on, grandmother and all the other women you know over age 51 of this and see what they think. Or go over to a local nursing home, senior center, Hystersisters or a menopause forum and say that.

BTW, my own gonads were removed nearly 20 years ago. Since then, no one has ever suggested that I am not female - or that I am now without sex. Never, not once. My children have never thought to claim that they now have a mother who isn't female. If your mother is past menopause age, do you claim she is not female? Do you no longer refer to her, or consider her, your mother?

Basic concepts like the difference between descriptive and prescriptive definitions seem lost on you. As does what happens over the human lifespan. I suspect you are quite young. Is that the case?

If a human is defined as an organism with two legs, two hands and 5 fingers, why wouldn't it be correct to say someone born without a leg, or someone who amputated a leg is not a human?

This is not just ignorant, it's heartlessly cruel and offensive. I dare you to go say that out loud to persons getting medical care at a VA hospital or a medical facility like the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC or the various Shriners Hospitals for Children in the US. Your views are beyond the pale. I am not engaging with you any further.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is not just ignorant, it's heartlessly cruel and offensive. I dare you to go say that out loud to persons getting medical care at a VA hospital or a medical facility like the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC or the various Shriners Hospitals for Children in the US. Your views are beyond the pale. I am not engaging with you any further.

I'm trying to understand the position. It may be cruel, and that's why I look for justifications. 'Why is someone born without a leg, or someone that amputated a leg still a human despite not meeting the definition of human which is to be bipedal?'.

If I wanted to believe they are not human I wouldn't ask.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is generally true of any given species is not necessarily true of each and every individual member of that species at every point of each individual's life. Human beings as a species can be said to have two legs and arms, 10 toes and 10 fingers. This applies to 99+% of Homo sapiens. But there's a small number of some human beings who for one reason or another are outside the norm for our species. However, that does not mean they are no longer members of the species Homo sapiens. It does not mean they are not human any more, or never were.

As I've said elsewhere, you need to study up on classification and categorization. And on the difference between descriptive and prescriptive definitions.

I think you would greatly benefit by learning about the lives of people with severe disabilities. Starting with reading Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun, all the people born with missing limbs due to the Thalidomide tragedy, and watching the Daniel Day- Lewis film My Left Foot, based on the real life story of Christy Brown.

You could easily have an accident tomorrow that causes you to lose a limb or an eye, or get sick and have to have your appendix or spleen removed. You really think you would then no longer be human?

Have you really never met a single person in your whole life who due to accidents, combat, blasts or surgery necessary coz of illness, dental wear & tear and/or aging doesn't have every single body part that the majority of humans have and which constitute the norm for our species? You don't know anyone who's had their tonsils or gallbladder out, or is missing teeth? You know no completely bald men? That's really hard to believe.

[–]Tea_Or_Coffee[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am not engaging with you any further.

Please don't leave. You said vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, and ovaries are not genitals and I have more questions left hanging :(

If vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, and ovaries are not genitals, then what are they? And in intersex cases where males have uteruses, fallopian tubes, ovaries, vaginas, etc, does it mean uterus, vagina, fallopian tubes, ovaries, etc are not female organs but organs that both male and female can have?

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You've been leaving literally every time you got your ass handed to you, only to return with amnesia later and ask the same question, and get your ass handed to you in the same way. I feel like you're the last person who should be saying this.