GC: How can sex be unchangeable, when the body constantly changes? And throughout evolution, unicellular organisms transitioned and changed to the multicellular organisms we call humans?

submitted by Tea_Or_Coffee from self.GCdebatesQT

The body constantly changes, from day 1 to the day of the burial, one's body transitions and changes to what doesn't look like the body one had a few days or years ago.

The skin sheds, and cells are replaced every second. Cells become cancerous. The body changes every second and everyday

And this is not the only change

In evolution, there exists the transition of unicellular organisms to the multicellular organisms we call humans.

When bodies of organisms transition to such an extent, how can you say sex is unchangeable and one can not transition to become the opposite sex?

Sex is part of the body, the body changes every second of everyday, and so it follows that sex which is a part of the ever changing body can change with it.

When someone has plastic surgery, you don't say their body didn't change.

When someone dyes their hair, you don't say the hair color didn't change.

When someone tans, you don't say the skin color didn't change.

But when someone takes hormones, and undergoes surgery to be given a neopenis or a neovagina, you go on the prolonged back and forth that the sex didn't change eventhough the body itself changed

??????

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Body changes after burial too. Decomposes. Becomes a skeleton (and their skeleton would help identify their sex). Does that mean the body isn’t really dead? Are there billions of people spending centuries in graves? When someone is cremated, are we burning them alive, since their body would still change after “death”?

Sex doesn’t change in humans. It cannot. Accept it. Cells can become cancerous. They cannot become male if they are female and they cannot become female if they are male. There are cancers that a male can get that a female cannot and vice versa. Skin sheds and people get tans or get darker- they don’t change races, do they? So why would they change sex?

How can we say sex isn’t changeable? because it literally isn’t. It literally provably hasn’t.

When someone has plastic surgery, we do say the body changed. Surgically. Artificially. If someone gets a nose job, and then has children, those kids aren’t gonna get their parent’s new nose. Because the change was man made, not biological, not evolutionary.

When someone dyes their hair, they have to keep dying it and touching up the roots because their hair will not grow to be the color they dyed it to appear. We don’t say “oh! You evolved to a different hair color!” We say “oh! You dyed your hair!” (Eta obviously naturally gray/graying hair is an exception)

When someone tans, be it from the sun or a salon, we don’t say “your skin changed!” We say “you got tan/you got a tan!” And eventually the tan fades and they go back to their normal tone or keep tanning to sustain the tan

Hormones don’t change sex. A neovagina made out of dick and balls (and whatever else) is still very much a (reconstructed) male sexual organ. A neophallus made from arm skin and vagina is still a female sex organ. Neither the fauxgina nor the fauxpenis is anything close to the actual genitalia they seek to replicate. TW don’t and will never have vaginas. TM don’t and will never have penises. Taking hormones doesn’t change sex, it changes your appearance. It has to be sustained, they take hormones for decades if not the rest of their life. Having the typical fat distribution of the opposite sex because you took artificial hormones doesn’t mean you’ve changed sex and actually puts you at higher risk of developing those cancer cells you mentioned earlier. There’s more to sex in humans than the appearance of genitalia and secondary features.

Tldr: sex doesn’t change in humans. It’s been well proven.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Except, there's nothing fundamentally impossible about sex change. There is no law or physical rule that says we cannot do it, given enough technology. We're just scratching the surface of the possibilities of gene therapies. As well as getting close to growing organs to match someone's cells.

Everything you said is predicated on the assumption that genes cannot be changed, but we know this to be untrue.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Well derrple, when sex change actually successfully happens go ahead and make a post about it. Until then, born male die male, born female die female, males aren’t women, females aren’t men, transwomen aren’t women, transmen aren’t men, that’s just how the cookie crumbles until scientists figure something else out for you

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm content in the meantime to just hide my sex to everyone except partners. Normal people aren't looking in someone's pants to determine whether they're a man or a woman.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Imagine being content to be deceitful lmao. Bye

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Why would I want to be open about it? Maleness is disgusting, so I hide that I am.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, you're right. Normal people aren't looking into someone else's pants to determine whether they're a woman or a man. Normal people can still determine whether someone is a man or a woman without doing this, though.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

It's not difficult to fool people with the right mix of luck, hormone therapy, etc.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's actually quite difficult to hide your sex, especially for males. Trans natal females seem to be more likely to "pass", but that may because I've only seen them in pictures. In contrast, even in pictures, trans natal males are usually obviously males.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It depends on the person's genetics and the lengths to which they'll go to change their body and voice, but it's still possible.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

We're just scratching the surface of the possibilities of gene therapies.

Gene therapies are aimed at making it possible to override, delete, select or "turn on" or "silence" individual genes or mutations. That's a far cry from being able to change a person's sex chromosomes! It's basically chalk and cheese, in fact.

Changing sex chromosomes would be a tall order since they are present in each and every one of the human body's many trillion individual cells.

As well as getting close to growing organs to match someone's cells.

Please share links to the research being done showing that it's possible or likely that female cells can be used to grow sperm-producing testicles and male cells can be used to grow egg-containing ovaries. I'd be very interested to learn of this research.

My understanding is that when it comes to growing new organs from a person's cells, the organs would have to be ones consistent with the person's sex chromosomes and species. Otherwise male TRAs wouldn't be so focused on and exercised about the possibility of getting surgeries that would implant in them the uteri, ovaries and vaginas taken from the bodies of girls and women - they'd be supporting the technology that will allow them simply to grow their own. Similarly, furries and those who "identify as" animals wouldn't have rely on costumes or fake headgear any more coz they could simply grow their own animal fur/hides, paws, tails and the like - and their own kitten ears, antlers and elephant tusks too. Probably their own unicorn horns to boot.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Changing sex chromosomes would be a tall order since they are present in each and every one of the human body's many trillion individual cells. Idk, I don't personally find it hard to imagine a helpful virus that could do such a thing, either cause cells to produce a second copy of an X chromosome, or to insert the SRY gene onto an existing X chromosome.

they'd be supporting the technology that will allow them simply to grow their own

I am, lol.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

As I asked before, please cite - and provide links to - the research showing this is being done. Keeping this earth-shattering information all to yourself is not very "inclusive," is it?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Still waiting, derple.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am not a biologist. However I think it's rash to insist something is impossible or will never happen unless we know it to be impossible according to scientific laws. There is no such scientific law against sex change.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

This is why I am going to be cremated. I will not die male, and I won't allow some archaeologist to look at my chromosomes or bones years after my death. People should not be defined by their sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You would still die male, you would just be cremated. And you better make sure they don’t leave even a single fragment, because if they find even one bone fragment, they’d still be able to determine your sex.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I mean I don't plan on dying in this body. I could be cremated while alive, I suppose. I'll do all I can to make sure every fragment is destroyed after my death.

[–]kwallio 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Troll troll troll your boat.

[–]SilverSlippers 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When someone with brown hair dyes their hair blonde, will that affect what hair color their children have?

If you lose a leg are you still human?

Aging process =/= sex differentiation. Two totally different processes.

[–]cupidscupidity 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The bigger question is, how do you define "sex"? Because there's no way this discussion will get anywhere if we can't come to an agreement on that, first.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think a discussion can get anywhere when the whole premise that someone brings in is "Evolution introduces tiny changes, ergo I am now an attack helicopter", and then bails.

[–]Britishbulldog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your genetic code doesn’t change. Your cells replicate by mitosis- DNA is exactly replicated then the cell divides. Things dictated by this (sex, eye colour, height at adulthood, for example) don’t change. A cystic fibrosis sufferer doesn’t randomly stop suffering, because although many things about their body can change, the mutation in their DNA remains. The disease won’t go away.

No matter what alterations occur in my body, my genes will ALWAYS contain two X chromosomes and NEVER a Y chromosome (and therefore never any of the genes contained on it).

I could have a phalloplasty and take T. I’ll still be a woman with the internal biological structures of females, weaker muscles (taking T will not make me as strong as a man), higher risk of osteoporosis and when I’m dug up in 1,000 years by archaeologists (assuming humanity hasn’t destroyed itself), the shape of my skull and width of my hips will indicate I’m female.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In evolution, there exists the transition of unicellular organisms to the multicellular organisms we call humans.

When bodies of organisms transition to such an extent, how can you say sex is unchangeable and one can not transition to become the opposite sex?

You don't seem to understand the difference between evolution of species and the aging of individual organisms. Two entirely different things.

From the moment of fertilization through gestation, birth, childhood, adolescence, adulthood, old age until and after death, each and every plant, animal and human being will have exactly the same DNA and sex chromosomes.

Yes, our bodies all make new cells constantly to replace all the cells that aren't constantly dying off. We each make billions of new cells each day. But every one of an individual's own cells - new, old, dead or yet to be made -still will always have the exact same DNA and sex chromosomes.

In four different groups of humans, some cells with different DNA and sex chromosomes might also be present in an individual's body: the very few people who have the extremely rare conditions known as mosaicism and chimerism (and the mechanisms for why this happens is clear); currently pregnant women; and some women who have been pregnant in the past, particularly those of us who carried fetuses to term or past a certain point of gestation.

Sometimes some women retain some fetal cells from our children even years after we've given birth to them. But because some women carry some leftover cells from our sons in some parts of our bodies after birth doesn't mean we have changed our sex. It's very easy to distinguish between cells that have a woman's own DNA and sex chromosomes and fetal cells that might have been left in her body from her son(s) and/or daughter(s).

Sex is part of the body, the body changes every second of everyday, and so it follows that sex which is a part of the ever changing body can change with it.

In humans and many other animals, sex characteristics change over the course of each individual organism's development and aging. But our sex does not.

Many cats and dogs are spayed or castrated, which is sometimes referred to "neutered." This doesn't turn a male dog into a female one or a female cat into a male one, nor does it make them no sex, either.

Whether a male or female human is 1 day or 100 years old, their sex remains fixed. Sex characteristics change, not a person's sex. Just the way human skin remains human skin whether it's on a newborn or a very old person.

When someone has plastic surgery, you don't say their body didn't change.

When someone dyes their hair, you don't say the hair color didn't change.

When someone tans, you don't say the skin color didn't change.

But when someone takes hormones, and undergoes surgery to be given a neopenis or a neovagina, you go on the prolonged back and forth that the sex didn't change event hough the body itself changed

The people in all your examples have changed their appearance to varying degrees, and the persons in your last example who've had "bottom surgeries" have altered how their urinary anatomy and parts of their genitals function in certain limited respects. But none of them has changed sex.

The trans persons in your last example have made cosmetic changes to their bodies through surgeries and use of chemicals just as the people in the preceding three examples have.

The surgeries and chemical treatments trans people get result in changes akin to using hair dye, getting a nose job or facelift, tanning the skin (or alternatively, bleaching the skin). Or to add some additional relevant examples, they are similar to getting dental crowns, veneers, fillings or implants; to getting a skin or bone graft; to having an organ such as the appendix, gall bladder, spleen, uterus, tonsil or other body parts such as moles, tumors and facial hair removed; or to getting a surgically-attached prothesis, a pacemaker or stent. Thank you for making this so clear!

[–]emptiedriver 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When someone has plastic surgery, you don't say their body didn't change... But when someone takes hormones, and undergoes surgery to be given a neopenis or a neovagina, you go on the prolonged back and forth that the sex didn't change eventhough the body itself changed

It's the same thing. When someone has cosmetic surgery, whether of the face or genitals, they have altered their body but not their sex. Trans people are actually more likely to get facial surgery or other cosmetic alterations than genital surgery anyway. But even if they alter their genitals, it does not produce a working reproductive system or a new DNA code. It is called "plastic surgery" for a reason - it's not a working organic living system, but an artificial flesh sculpture set in place to mimic the real version.

You can change what you look like, not what you are.