QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I hardly see gender critical people be any more accepting of the "years on Hormones, multiple rounds of FFS, post-buttom-surgery, unclockable-if-they-dont-tell-you"-level trans woman compared to the "day-one, pre-everything still trying to of the beard stubble"-level trans woman.

I'm one of those people. And I very much disagree with this point made by emptiedriver

it were, everyone who was trans would get full SRS, and the questions of biological difference would at least be significantly reduced (eg, the issue of people with penises being allowed into women's shelters, prisons, dressing rooms etc would not come up)

Coz imany girls and women - and many men especially fathers and grandfathers - don't just think it's inappropriate for males with penises to be in women's shelters, prisons, change rooms, toilets, hospital wards, sports and so on. Most people think it's not appropriate for all and any males over age 7 regardless of their genital configuration, sexual orientation and claimed "identities" to be in female spaces.

No matter how much plastic surgery they have, males still have enormous strength and speed advantages over female people. Males who've gone to great lengths to surgically alter their outward appearance like Gigi Gorgeous, Blaire White and Laverne Cox might look like Barbie dolls come to life, but they still have male grip strength and size. With one hand they can easily grab a girl or woman by the throat and strangle her to unconsciousness or death. Even a lifetime of cross-sex hormones and T-suppression doesn't change that.

No matter how much cosmetic surgery and lip fillers males get, what they wear, how much makeup they put on, how long their hair or hair extensions are, how much they flick their hair and tilt their heads, how long and shiny their acrylic nails are, how giggly and "girly" and coquettish they act, they all still have a male gaze - and it's with that prurient, prying male gaze that they look at girls and women.

Decades ago working as a newspaper reporter I did a story on Vietnam war vets in the US who had experienced extreme injuries and amputations to their lower bodies and were in wheelchairs. These men all had lost their genitals, but that in no way diminished their male gaze and made them any less able to make women uncomfortable by using their male gaze to look us up and down and visually undress us. Similarly, I have visited a lot of rehab hospitals and nursing homes full of men in wheelchairs for one reason or another, often coz they were elderly and had experienced strokes. But just coz these men couldn't get out of their wheelchairs and attack me didn't mean they couldn't look and leer at me like a piece of meat.

Even males who are not sexually attracted to females tend to have an untoward, unseemly curiosity in looking at female bodies and can't help themselves from checking us out to see what we really look like up close. Moreover, homosexual males who wish they were female themselves tend to look at female people and our naked bodies with envious, covetous eyes - which is very unpleasant for us female people. Worse, since males who wish they were the opposite sex and call themselves trans typically tend to be extremely sexist, superficial, ageist, judgmental about other people's appearance and disdainful of human physical imperfection in general - and disgusted by things like body fat, cellulite, stretch marks, wrinkles, saggy skin, breasts and buttocks - their presence in women's locker rooms, loos, shelters, showers, prisons and such will make these spaces less welcoming and psychologically safe for the majority of female people.

Girls and women don't consent to male people bringing their male bodies, male gaze, male sexual thoughts and sexist aesthetic standards of what women and girls should look like into spaces meant for females-only and where we will be vulnerable, naked and/or in various states of undress. As for the girls and women who say it's OK with them, they don't mind the presence of some males in such spaces personally - the consent of other female people is not for them to give on our behalf, and the hard-won rights of all female people are not for a small number of our own too naive to have thought things through sex to blithely give away.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And I very much disagree with this point made by emptiedriver

it were, everyone who was trans would get full SRS, and the questions of biological difference would at least be significantly reduced (eg, the issue of people with penises being allowed into women's shelters, prisons, dressing rooms etc would not come up)

Coz imany girls and women - and many men especially fathers and grandfathers - don't just think it's inappropriate for males with penises to be in women's shelters, prisons, change rooms, toilets, hospital wards, sports and so on. Most people think it's not appropriate for all and any males over age 7 regardless of their genital configuration, sexual orientation and claimed "identities" to be in female spaces.

I don't think that's disagreeing with me. I just said the issue would be reduced because at least the question of penises would not come up. The question of males regardless of genital reconfiguration would still be an issue, of course. But at the moment, 90+% of the people who are fighting for rights to access are intact males. If we can all agree that they should not have access, and that the only questions should be about whether or in what cases males with full SRS could have access, I think that would be progress. But pro trans people like Tain-Reich have to be fully clear - to their own side - that they do not support people with penises calling themselves women or accessing women's spaces.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No matter how much plastic surgery they have, males still have enormous strength and speed advantages over female people. Males who've gone to great lengths to surgically alter their outward appearance like Gigi Gorgeous, Blaire White and Laverne Cox might look like Barbie dolls come to life, but they still have male grip strength and size. With one hand they can easily grab a girl or woman by the throat and strangle her to unconsciousness or death. Even a lifetime of cross-sex hormones and T-suppression doesn't change that.

First, that thing about "unchanged grip strength" is wrong 1. ), second, I call BS. on your claim that even the average man can "easlily" grab and strangle the average woman to death one handed.

No matter how much cosmetic surgery and lip fillers males get, what they wear, how much makeup they put on, how long their hair or hair extensions are, how much they flick their hair and tilt their heads, how long and shiny their acrylic nails are, how giggly and "girly" and coquettish they act, they all still have a male gaze - and it's with that prurient, prying male gaze that they look at girls and women.

Decades ago working as a newspaper reporter I did a story on Vietnam war vets in the US who had experienced extreme injuries and amputations to their lower bodies and were in wheelchairs. These men all had lost their genitals, but that in no way diminished their male gaze and made them any less able to make women uncomfortable by using their male gaze to look us up and down and visually undress us. Similarly, I have visited a lot of rehab hospitals and nursing homes full of men in wheelchairs for one reason or another, often coz they were elderly and had experienced strokes. But just coz these men couldn't get out of their wheelchairs and attack me didn't mean they couldn't look and leer at me like a piece of meat.

Even males who are not sexually attracted to females tend to have an untoward, unseemly curiosity in looking at female bodies and can't help themselves from checking us out to see what we really look like up close.

Is this "male gaze" a learned ability or biologically inate (if yes, how?)?

As for the girls and women who say it's OK with them, they don't mind the presence of some males in such spaces personally - the consent of other female people is not for them to give on our behalf, and the hard-won rights of all female people are not for a small number of our own too naive to have thought things through sex to blithely give away.

53% of women 2 agreeing to let transgender women into women's shelters (if the transgender woman in question is a victim, of course) are "a small number"?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

First, that thing about "unchanged grip strength" is wrong 1. ), second, I call BS. on your claim that even the average man can "easlily" grab and strangle the average woman to death one handed.

You can call BS all you want, buddy. Which is consistent for you, as you've also made false claims on this very thread that males with opposite sex "gender identities" have no advantages over females in sports - and when solid evidence was presented saying otherwise, you ignored it.

There's tons of scientific research documenting the very different grip strength of the two sexes - and the large size of males' hands relative to the much smaller size of female throats that enable males to do females enormous damage with their bare hand or hands.

Also, one of the reasons it's so easy for males to strangle females to unconsciousness or death with their bare hand or hands is that during puberty, female humans do not grow an extra layer of neck cartilage that protects against being strangled, choked, hit and injured in the throat the way males do.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can call BS all you want, buddy. Which is consistent for you, as you've also made false claims on this very thread that males with opposite sex "gender identities" have no advantages over females in sports - and when solid evidence was presented saying otherwise, you ignored it.

There's tons of scientific research documenting the very different grip strength of the two sexes - and the large size of males' hands relative to the much smaller size of female throats that enable males to do females enormous damage with their bare hand or hands.

Also, one of the reasons it's so easy for males to strangle females to unconsciousness or death with their bare hand or hands is that during puberty, female humans do not grow an extra layer of neck cartilage that protects against being strangled, choked, hit and injured in the throat the way males do.

First, I linked evidence that the thing about "still have male grip strength" is wrong. Second, can you provide proof for your claim that even the average man can "easlily" grab and strangle the average woman to death one handed? Third, has your lurid scenario, where a transgender women starts strangeling women in the women's shelter ever actually happend?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

has your lurid scenario, where a transgender women starts strangeling women in the women's shelter ever actually happend?

Why do assaults on women have to happen exclusively in women's shelters for these assaults to count in your opinion?

A "transgender woman" in the US state of Illinois incarcerated in a male prison strangled their male cellmate to death with "her" bare hands. After being transferred to a female prison, this inmate reportedly raped at least one female prisoner the first day he was allowed to interact with the general population.

A "transgender woman" who'd set records in fell running in the UK committed a murderous knife attack against a male sporting official and others in the official's office that nearly killed them and left all with varying degrees of lifelong disability.

A "transgender woman" who was part of the founding team of Twitter broke into the home of "her" ex wife and raped her there.

A "transgender woman" staying in a publicly-funded women's shelter in Canada posted pictures of himself online showing how he paraded his erect penis in the women's loo in that facility, telling how he walked around the women's shelter every day showing off his "morning wood," and bragging about how he abused female residents of that women's shelter.

A "transgender woman" who'd long led male protests to harass women who supported and participated in MichFest was so incensed by women saying no to him that he violently murdered two lesbians and their son in California.