QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm saying the very idea of there being any OTHER thing to be aware of is just made up.

Then what do you think the distress felt by gender dysphoric transgender people is based on?

Saying that you are the gender identity of your sex is imposing the notion of gender identity on people who simply don't have it. Most of us just have a sex.

There is no such thing as "not having a gender identity". If you feel psychological distress in regards to having your anatomical sex, you have a gender identity different from your anatomical sex and is the sexed phenotype where you wouldn't feel such a distress. If you don't feel any such distress, your gender identity matches your anatomical sex. Under such definition, how would it be possible not to have a gender identity?

The more ethereal you make the concept of gender identity, the less need there is for a word to begin with.

it's not at all anm etheral concept. And of course we need words here.

We can escape that ridiculousness by using the standard terms as they were originally meant, and then calling your friends by their personal soul names or whatever.

what words do you propose for "Person with male Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a male Phenotype" and "Person with female Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a female Phenotype" and how do you propose replacing the words "man" and "woman" with these words for all interactions not involving sexed anatomy?

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Then what do you think the distress felt by gender dysphoric transgender people is based on?

It's personal distress - bodily, psychological discomfort or dysphoria. Exactly how to categorize will depend on how individuals describe their own experiences - a LOT of people have some kind of distress about their bodies! - and especially when living in a society or family that imposes expectations. But personal distress is a psychological issue. It is not a category that can be physically or objectively determined.

It began as a mental illness, with the same mushy boundaries as other psychological diagnoses, but has become increasingly unreliable as it's become acceptable to just self-diagnose. The gates are wide open with no requirements.

There is no such thing as "not having a gender identity". If you feel psychological distress in regards to having your anatomical sex, you have a gender identity different from your anatomical sex ... If you don't feel any such distress, your gender identity matches your anatomical sex.

Again, why is this an "identity"? You don't have to identify with your body to have a body. What if you just accept the body you have, or feel slight distress, or have had distress at times, or can't exactly decide whether you have distress? Plus plenty of transgender people no longer claim to have distress about their bodies anyway, they just say they feel an inner sense of gender. You are the one claiming it simply exists. Do you accept that you have a racial identity? Or a national identity? If someone tells you that you either do or don't identify with some aspect of your physical or historical reality, and that that makes you either trans or cis-racial or what have you, is that reasonable to you? Can't we simply have physical bodies and personal (rather than categorical) identities?

it's not at all anm etheral concept. And of course we need words here.

If it's not ethereal, what does it actually mean? What do people in the category "trans women" all have in common? Or what do "trans women and cis women" all have in common that make them one category?

what words do you propose for "Person with male Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a male Phenotype" and "Person with female Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a female Phenotype"

Transsexual, Transvestite? Trans person? Trans Woman / Trans Man? MTF and FTM? As long as we recognize that a trans person is specifically one sex presenting as the other we are fine.

and how do you propose replacing the words "man" and "woman" with these words for all interactions not involving sexed anatomy?

Not sure I get what you're asking. I would like to continue using the words man and woman to refer to biological reality, and use trans-specific terms to talk about people who are intentionally trying to present or want to be understood as the sex that they are not anatomically.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It began as a mental illness, with the same mushy boundaries as other psychological diagnoses, but has become increasingly unreliable as it's become acceptable to just self-diagnose. The gates are wide open with no requirements.

I find self-diagnosis rather questionable, since self-diagnosis is obviousöly rather unreliable.

Again, why is this an "identity"? You don't have to identify with your body to have a body. What if you just accept the body you have, or feel slight distress, or have had distress at times, or can't exactly decide whether you have distress?

They simply can't accept the body they have, because it feels utterly, innately and inherently wrong to them. This is not a choice. This is not some slight distress. If they could accept their bodies as is, do you really think they would go though HRT, surgeries, get thrown out by their parents (yes, I have seen several experiencing this) over this?

Like, let me tell you about the time, one of them was - clearly during a particulary bad gender dysphopric phase - making a post about how he felt about the physiological effects of having the hormone levels of his birth sex. The entire thing read like a particulary disturbing body horror story written from the perspective of the person undergoing the body horror - except all the worse because it happens for real to someone I actually know and like (Note: he latter, after pulling himself somewhat together and having reconsidered his decision not to go on HRT for carrerial reasons deleted the post. But, believe me, it was a really disturbing read)

Do you accept that you have a racial identity? Or a national identity?

If someone tells you that you either do or don't identify with some aspect of your physical or historical reality, and that that makes you either trans or cis-racial or what have you, is that reasonable to you?

depends on how they define the entire thing. If their definition is, that you are "transracial" if you feel distress over physically/by ancestry being a particular ethnicity and "cisracial" if you don't, than I would be "cisracial", because I don't give a sh#t. If they demanded that because of that I would have to have a strong identification with my ehtnicity, I'd call them out on this bullshit.

If it's not ethereal, what does it actually mean? What do people in the category "trans women" all have in common?

Starting out with a male physical anatomy and desireing to change their anatomy to a female one or having already done so.

Or what do "trans women and cis women" all have in common that make them one category?

Having a female physical anatomy and not having a desire to have a different one or having a desire to have a female physical anatomy .

what words do you propose for "Person with male Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a male Phenotype" and "Person with female Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a female Phenotype"

Transsexual, Transvestite? Trans person? Trans Woman / Trans Man? MTF and FTM? As long as we recognize that a trans person is specifically one sex presenting as the other we are fine.

I was asking for words that respectively mean "Cisgender women and transgender women" and "cisgender men and transgender men", not for trans-specific words.

and how do you propose replacing the words "man" and "woman" with these words for all interactions not involving sexed anatomy?

Not sure I get what you're asking. I would like to continue using the words man and woman to refer to biological reality, and use trans-specific terms to talk about people who are intentionally trying to present or want to be understood as the sex that they are not anatomically.

If you demand, that "man" and "woman" are purely biological terms, then you also have to replace every instance of the words "men" and "women" were the present sexed anatomy doesn't/shouldn't matter with new words meaning "cisgender men and transgender men" and "cisgender women and transgender women".

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They simply can't accept the body they have, because it feels utterly, innately and inherently wrong to them. This is not a choice. This is not some slight distress. If they could accept their bodies as is, do you really think they would go though HRT, surgeries, get thrown out by their parents (yes, I have seen several experiencing this) over this?

No one is saying that the distress of people who call themselves trans or "gender dysphoric" is not real, that it's consciously chosen, or that it's "slight" or insignificant.

We are simply saying that distress over one's body, including one's sex anatomy and processes, is not unique to people who are trans or "gender dysphoric" - nor is the suffering that trans and "GD" people feel coz of their distress over their sexed bodies necessarily more extreme, painful or disabling than the distress many other people who are NOT trans and do NOT have "GD" feel over their bodies and sex characteristics too.

Like, let me tell you about the time, one of them was - clearly during a particulary bad gender dysphopric phase - making a post about how he felt about the physiological effects of having the hormone levels of his birth sex. The entire thing read like a particulary disturbing body horror story written from the perspective of the person undergoing the body horror - except all the worse because it happens for real to someone I actually know and like (Note: he latter, after pulling himself somewhat together and having reconsidered his decision not to go on HRT for carrerial reasons deleted the post. But, believe me, it was a really disturbing read)

You really need to broaden your social circle a bit and meet, talk to and read about a more diverse set of human beings than just people who are trans and "gender dysphoric" whom you seem to think experience things unlike what other people go through.

Fact is, many people of all sorts have had strange, extremely disturbing dissociative episodes in which they've seen and experienced their bodies as monstrous, utterly alien, out to get them, diseased, distorted, hideous, non-human, huge, tiny, crawling with bugs, being on fire, part horse, part dog, with wings or fins, and so on.

Sometimes people have hallucinatory experiences - visual, auditory, olfactory, tactile and/or gustatory - as the result of mental illnesses (lots of people with "garden variety" major depression, for example, experience episodes of psychosis and disassociation from their bodies during MDD); due to physical states brought on by disease (brain tumors, Co2 narcosis, meningitis, shock after a traumatic labor and birth, for example); or because of drugs (THC, opioids, the drugs they used to routinely to drug to pregnant women in labor and birth, some drugs used in labor and childbirth today, infused immune drugs like IVIG, and hallucinogens like LSD, mescaline, peyote and ketamine, for example).

https://www.healthline.com/health/hallucinations#causes

https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/nonpsychotropic-medicationinduced-psychosis

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2727751/

This is not to diminish the scariness and horrible nature of what your friend went through. I'm just trying to make it clear that such experiences are part of human experience and therefore they are not unique to trans and gender dysphoric people the way you and others seem to think.

Some information about the horrible experiences featuring very scary hallucinations that have been part of childbirth for women past and present that you might find eye-opening:

https://timeline.com/restraints-hallucinations-and-forgotten-pain-were-the-norm-on-midcentury-maternity-wards-46909123c4f7

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bjg8em/i-thought-my-baby-was-a-horse-what-its-like-to-trip-on-your-post-birth-drugsv

https://www.rxlist.com/pitocin-side-effects-drug-center.htm

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No one is saying that the distress of people who call themselves trans or "gender dysphoric" is not real, that it's consciously chosen, or that it's "slight" or insignificant.

Except for all the gender criticals here downplaying and trivializing the issue. Like making statement along the lines of calling transgender women "men who believe that preferring their legs shaved and enjoying cosmetics makes them women"

We are simply saying that distress over one's body, including one's sex anatomy and processes, is not unique to people who are trans or "gender dysphoric" - nor is the suffering that trans and "GD" people feel coz of their distress over their sexed bodies necessarily more extreme, painful or disabling than the distress many other people who are NOT trans and do NOT have "GD" feel over their bodies and sex characteristics too.

I'm not saying that people can't feel distress over their bodies (sexed anatomy included) that isn't gender dysphoria, or that it is necessary more painfull/disabling/distressing. I am just saying that gender dysphoria is a serious condition, that deserves treatment, empathy and acceptance, instead of villification, hatred and stigmatization.

Fact is, many people of all sorts have had strange, extremely disturbing dissociative episodes in which they've seen and experienced their bodies as monstrous, utterly alien, out to get them, diseased, distorted, hideous, non-human, huge, tiny, crawling with bugs, being on fire, part horse, part dog, with wings or fins, and so on.

Sometimes people have hallucinatory experiences - visual, auditory, olfactory, tactile and/or gustatory - as the result of mental illnesses (lots of people with "garden variety" major depression, for example, experience episodes of psychosis and disassociation from their bodies during MDD); due to physical states brought on by disease (brain tumors, Co2 narcosis, meningitis, shock after a traumatic labor and birth, for example); or because of drugs (THC, opioids, the drugs they used to routinely to drug to pregnant women in labor and birth, some drugs used in labor and childbirth today, infused immune drugs like IVIG, and hallucinogens like LSD, mescaline, peyote and ketamine, for example).

https://www.healthline.com/health/hallucinations#causes

https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/nonpsychotropic-medicationinduced-psychosis

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2727751/

This is not to diminish the scariness and horrible nature of what your friend went through. I'm just trying to make it clear that such experiences are part of human experience and therefore they are not unique to trans and gender dysphoric people the way you and others seem to think.

Some information about the horrible experiences featuring very scary hallucinations that have been part of childbirth for women past and present that you might find eye-opening:

https://timeline.com/restraints-hallucinations-and-forgotten-pain-were-the-norm-on-midcentury-maternity-wards-46909123c4f7

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bjg8em/i-thought-my-baby-was-a-horse-what-its-like-to-trip-on-your-post-birth-drugsv

https://www.rxlist.com/pitocin-side-effects-drug-center.htm

Except that you are still fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. The issue wasn't, that he was perceiving his body in a way it wasn't. The problem was, that he was perceiving his body exactly the way it was and that to him having such a body was as deeply disturbing as actually having some monsterous, inhuman body.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Except that you are still fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. The issue wasn't, that he was perceiving his body in a way it wasn't. The problem was, that he was perceiving his body exactly the way it was and that to him having such a body was as deeply disturbing as actually having some monsterous, inhuman body.

If he was experiencing his body as monstrous when by objective standards and the observation of others, his body is not in fact monstrous, he was NOT

perceiving his body exactly the way it was

At all. He was disassociating and hallucinating, and thus not perceiving the reality of how his body actually is or was at that moment.

There's nothing wrong with having hallucinatory or disassociative episodes - lots of people (including me) have taken drugs for the express purpose of hallucinating and experiencing other ways of perceiving the world and our own bodies through all our various senses. Many of us have found this extremely beneficial. There's an entire literature written about it, from Huxley's classic The Doors of Perception from 1954 to recent works about people micro-dosing with LSD or using IV ketamine as treatments for and ways to prevent depression. Lots of rock 'n' roll is about these kinds of experiences, and The Doors are named after them.

Having experienced hallucinations can very much deepen one's understanding of reality, but hallucinations are not reality. People who mistake their hallucinations for reality are suffering from a delusion.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If he was experiencing his body as monstrous when by objective standards and the observation of others, his body is not in fact monstrous, he was NOT

perceiving his body exactly the way it was

At all. He was disassociating and hallucinating, and thus not perceiving the reality of how his body actually is or was at that moment.

There's nothing wrong with having hallucinatory or disassociative episodes - lots of people (including me) have taken drugs for the express purpose of hallucinating and experiencing other ways of perceiving the world and our own bodies through all our various senses. Many of us have found this extremely beneficial. There's an entire literature written about it, from Huxley's classic The Doors of Perception from 1954 to recent works about people micro-dosing with LSD or using IV ketamine as treatments for and ways to prevent depression. Lots of rock 'n' roll is about these kinds of experiences, and The Doors are named after them.

Having experienced hallucinations can very much deepen one's understanding of reality, but hallucinations are not reality. People who mistake their hallucinations for reality are suffering from a delusion.

Again. He wasn't hallucinating. That wasn't the problem. The problem is, that to him having a body of his birth sex is deeply and fundamentally disturbing to him, even if from a purely physical point there was nothing wrong with the body. It just isn't the kind of body that feels right to him.