QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

But how do you become associated with either category? For most of us, it is simply a biological fact. Only trans people, and perhaps some limited segment of "cis-identified" people though it can't really be proven, have an inner sense of gender. The vast majority of us know what sex we are based on bodily realities.

of course transgender people are aware of the biological sex they are, after all, the physical sexed features are the source of their gender dysphoria. If you don't feel distress about your physical sexed features (simplifying here, for more in depth criteria see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria#Diagnosis ) you are the gender identity of your physical sex.

Well, except that it does not need to be. That's why we have the words "man", "woman", "male", and "female". For the purposes of healthcare, sexual relations, sports and physical events, private issues, and various other situations where our biological realities impact the ways that we interact with the world. If there were no biological difference, there would be no need for the words.

of course there are biological differences between the typical male and female anatomies, what is questioned is that the terms "man" and "woman" are biological terms, simply because the people in this categories typically have a similar biology.

The whole inner identity is a fiction. It is loosely based on stereotypes of how biologically different people behave, but it is meaningless.

Gender identity is not stereotypes or gender roles. A person could love to perform activities stereotypical for and love to wear the clothing stereotypically asociated with their birth sex, and still have a different gender identity, if the person in question experiences gender dysphoria in regards to the sexed anatomy of their birth sex.

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

of course transgender people are aware of the biological sex they are

I'm saying the very idea of there being any OTHER thing to be aware of is just made up. Saying that you are the gender identity of your sex is imposing the notion of gender identity on people who simply don't have it. Most of us just have a sex. That's why we have the words man and woman, because they are useful to discuss issues which are relevant to our sexes and biological differences. They are not useful to discuss gender identities. There's nothing to discuss! There are no issues!

Gender identity is not stereotypes or gender roles. A person could love to perform activities stereotypical for and love to wear the clothing stereotypically asociated with their birth sex, and still have a different gender identity,

The more ethereal you make the concept of gender identity, the less need there is for a word to begin with. But we do need words to discuss biological differences, as evidenced by the clumsy attempts to reconfigure language to discuss all sorts of important topics - all the menstruating people and individuals who pee standing up and those who get pregnant. We can escape that ridiculousness by using the standard terms as they were originally meant, and then calling your friends by their personal soul names or whatever.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm saying the very idea of there being any OTHER thing to be aware of is just made up.

Then what do you think the distress felt by gender dysphoric transgender people is based on?

Saying that you are the gender identity of your sex is imposing the notion of gender identity on people who simply don't have it. Most of us just have a sex.

There is no such thing as "not having a gender identity". If you feel psychological distress in regards to having your anatomical sex, you have a gender identity different from your anatomical sex and is the sexed phenotype where you wouldn't feel such a distress. If you don't feel any such distress, your gender identity matches your anatomical sex. Under such definition, how would it be possible not to have a gender identity?

The more ethereal you make the concept of gender identity, the less need there is for a word to begin with.

it's not at all anm etheral concept. And of course we need words here.

We can escape that ridiculousness by using the standard terms as they were originally meant, and then calling your friends by their personal soul names or whatever.

what words do you propose for "Person with male Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a male Phenotype" and "Person with female Phenotype and/or distressed over not having a female Phenotype" and how do you propose replacing the words "man" and "woman" with these words for all interactions not involving sexed anatomy?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There is no such thing as "not having a gender identity". If you feel psychological distress in regards to having your anatomical sex, you have a gender identity different from your anatomical sex and is the sexed phenotype where you wouldn't feel such a distress. If you don't feel any such distress, your gender identity matches your anatomical sex. Under such definition, how would it be possible not to have a gender identity?

No, this is not true. Please stop saying that the subjective feelings that you and a small number of the earth's human inhabitants experience are feelings that everyone else on earth shares.

Most people definitely do NOT have a "gender identity." The only people who can be relied on to agree they have a gender identity are those who wish they were the opposite sex, or neither sex, or some human-concocted combination of the two sexes.

Some vegans have a very extreme revulsion to the idea of consuming or using animal products. But just because some people have this revulsion and experience it deeply does not mean everyone else on the planet have it too. Even amongst people who are against eating and using animal products, many don't feel the same sort of revulsion and deep-seated distress over these matters that some vegans do.

Billions of people on earth believe they have souls and after their deaths their souls will continue to exist in some kind of afterlife or reincarnation. Just because billions of people believe they have a soul does not mean all people believe we have souls. Many of us don't think that souls are real even for those who believe they have one.

Right now I personally feel great deal of distress and discomfort "in regards to my anatomical sex" coz my anatomical sex has caused me to develop pudendal neuralgia, which creates an excruciating combination of extreme pain and numbness in my vulva, lower vagina, female perineum, female urethra and the anus in which I've had recurrent piles since I first developed them during pregnancy many years ago. Every day I wish a giant bladed device would come along and scoop out all these body parts. But I still do not have a "gender identity."

BTW, both sexes have a pudendal nerve, and thus both males and females can suffer from pudendal neuralgia. But it is is 2-3 times more common in females. Coz of our sex anatomy and coz female people experience many physical things that males don't - menarche, menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, labor, childbirth, childbirth injuries and menopause.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No, this is not true. Please stop saying that the subjective feelings that you and a small number of the earth's human inhabitants experience are feelings that everyone else on earth shares.

Most people definitely do NOT have a "gender identity." The only people who can be relied on to agree they have a gender identity are those who wish they were the opposite sex, or neither sex, or some human-concocted combination of the two sexes.

Of course people whose gender identity matches their anatomical sex do not feel gender dysphoria, and therefore, to them, there doesn't appear to be such a thing as a"gender identity", since without the mismatch between gender identity and anatomical sex, gender identity has no effect. But that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Some vegans have a very extreme revulsion to the idea of consuming or using animal products. But just because some people have this revulsion and experience it deeply does not mean everyone else on the planet have it too. Even amongst people who are against eating and using animal products, many don't feel the same sort of revulsion and deep-seated distress over these matters that some vegans do.

transgender people do not believe non-transgender people to experience gender dysphoria. A close adaption of your analogy would be if the vegans with a revulsion to consuming or using animal products would consider there to be such a thing as a "meat-revulsion-identity" where you do identify as "meat revolted" if you feel a revulsion to eating meat and "meat non-revolted" if you do not feel such a revulsion, while still being aware that there are both.

Right now I personally feel great deal of distress and discomfort "in regards to my anatomical sex" coz my anatomical sex has caused me to develop pudendal neuralgia, which creates an excruciating combination of extreme pain and numbness in my vulva, lower vagina, female perineum, female urethra and the anus in which I've had recurrent piles since I first developed them during pregnancy many years ago. Every day I wish a giant bladed device would come along and scoop out all these body parts. But I still do not have a "gender identity."

you experience distress resulting from your reproductive anatomy being in an unhealthy state - and therefore hurting - right now. But if it were healthy and fine and not hurting at all, would you still wish every day "a giant bladed device [would] come along and scoop out all these body parts" ?

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Of course people whose gender identity matches their anatomical sex do not feel gender dysphoria, and therefore, to them, there doesn't appear to be such a thing as a"gender identity", since without the mismatch between gender identity and anatomical sex, gender identity has no effect. But that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I have made it clear to you in other posts I don't have a "gender identity"! Stop trying to impose on one me.

You haven't defined gender or "gender identity" anywhere on this thread, despite everyone asking you to do so again and again.

Gender is commonly understood to mean masculine/feminine. And "gender identity" is commonly understood to mean preference for sex stereotypes and sex roles that are either masculine or feminine.

I am of the female sex, but I do not identify with feminine sex stereotypes and sex roles forced upon or associated with female people. Please stop telling me that because I don't have "gender dypshoria" I must identify with those stereotypes. I know my own mind very, very well. I have fought against sex stereotyping my whole life - and I'm in my mid-60s, so that's a long time.

But if it were healthy and fine and not hurting at all, would you still wish every day "a giant bladed device [would] come along and scoop out all these body parts" ?

That's an a silly thought experiment coz the condition I have is incurable, or at least it is at the moment. I've tried all the available treatments, and am open to trying others if they come along, but so far the treatments I've tried have either not worked or only worked partially and for a while. My only option to not be in severe pain 24/7/365 is opioids such as morphine and Fentanyl, which I was on for close to a decade but decided to stop in 2011. Coz I like having a clear head and my wits about me.

I'd miss my clit and the orgasms it brings, and wouldn't want to have to pee and defecate into bags, but I have no use for most of my sex organs anymore. I've already had my uterus, cervix, ovaries and Fallopian tubes removed coz of the painful health problems I've had - and getting rid of those certainly helped for many years. I don't regret losing those organs. I think I'd do fine without the rest. My brain is the organ I treasure the most, followed by my eyes and typing hands.

BTW, the removal of various of my female reproductive organs has had no impact on my sense of self and self-image. I am just as female now as when I was a lovely young woman, when I was pregnant, when I was a new mother, when I was breastfeeding. My sex is a matter of biological fact. It's not an identity. If I lost my breasts due to cancer, and had an accident in which I lost my lower body, every cell in my body would still be XX. I would still be as female as I am today, and when I was born.

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You haven't defined gender or "gender identity" anywhere on this thread, despite everyone asking you to do so again and again.

I have defined it again and again. Just because you are unwilling to listen, doesn't mean I haven't explained it already.

And "gender identity" is commonly understood to mean preference for sex stereotypes and sex roles that are either masculine or feminine.

NO IT DOESN'T. Why do you make me explain the same goddamn thing over and over again?

I am of the female sex, but I do not identify with feminine sex stereotypes and sex roles forced upon or associated with female people. Please stop telling me that because I don't have "gender dypshoria" I must identify with those stereotypes. I know my own mind very, very well. I have fought against sex stereotyping my whole life - and I'm in my mid-60s, so that's a long time.

Gender Identity has nothing to do with gender roles/gender stereotypes. It doesn't matter at all how masculine/feminine you are or how much you say "f#ck you" to gender stereotypes. If you are okay with being of the female sex (which you quite clearly are. And, no, health problems or experiences of sexual harassement do not count towards this) your gender identity is female, even if you defy every single gender stereotype regarding women that has ever existed simultanously.