QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Physical pain arising due to ones sexed anatomy being unhealthy or undergoing a painfull natural process is not "discomfort" in the sense of gender dysphoria.

It's not one or the other. Most people who have physical pain have psychological pain along with it. Very often the psychological pain in such cases is focused on the parts of the body, or the bodily processes, that cause the pain or where the pain is most strongly experienced.

In all your lengthy posts throughout this entire thread, you have never once defined "gender dysphoria" or described it in anything but the vaguest terms - "distress" and feeling "deeply uncomfortable." You keep saying what "gender dysphoria" is NOT, but never say what it IS other than dislike, distress, discomfort.

You also seem totally unaware that lots of of people have these very same negative feelings - and more - about our bodies, including our sex organs and secondary sex characteristics - and that we too fantasize about getting rid of the body parts that distress and pain us.

Your POV seems to be that the psychological distress and discomfort of "gender dysphoria" is the only kind of human pain that matters. To you, "gender dysphoria" seems to trump all other kinds of pain that human beings are capable of suffering, whether psychological, physical or a combo of both.

Feeling so deeply uncomfortable with having breasts (not with how other people treats you for having breasts, but the mere fact of you having breasts) that you are seriously contemplating impromptu self-surgery using gardening tools to get rid of them, that is meant with "distress" or "discomfort" in the sense of gender dysphoria (and, yes, that's a real case. Saw two transgender men - that is, female-to-male transgenders - talking about having experienced such thought processes)

The experiences of these women is not at all new! I know many women who endured horrible back and neck aches and other physical problems as well as tons of psychic pain and sexual harassment and abuse for years - decades even - coz of their large breasts. They begged for breast reductions and fought with insurers and health care systems like the NHS to get them and usually were refused. They often dreamed of cutting their breasts off and said they often fantasized about taking a sword, carving knife or straight razor (the long bladed "cut throat" variety) to their breasts and getting rid of them once and for all. What's the difference between what those women went through and still go through today and "gender dysphoria"?

Go talk to some older women who are long past our childbearing years about how we feel about our breasts. You'd find that quite a few of us are just as "deeply uncomfortable with having breasts" as the "transmen" you speak of. We might actually be more uncomfortable coz being old, our breasts are big and saggy and fibrous and sometimes tender and painful. Plus, being so saggy, they flop all over the place, making it hard to get into a comfortable enough sleep position to guarantee a sold night of shut eye. Wearing bras is extremely uncomfortable for us and something we all hate. We'd happily get rid of our breasts if we could. But whereas "transmen" and women who say they are "non-binary" now can get medically-needless cosmetic surgeries to remove their breasts approved and paid for by insurance and government health plans, those of us who are mere "garden variety" women don't have that option or privilege. We're just supposed to suck it up. Coz we're not as important as women with so much internal misogyny that they deny their sex.

But really, what distinguishes the discomfort and distress over our breasts that older women like me feel from the distress and discomfort that the "gender dysphoric" feel?

Also, this is probably news to you, but before abortion was legal and the morning after pill was widely available, millions of women stuck coat hangers and knitting needles up their vaginas, through their cervixes and into their uteri to abort fetuses coz they felt "so deeply uncomfortable with having" children they could not afford to have, or they would be shamed, ostracized, disowned, kicked out of the house, fired, thrown out of school, excommunicated and forever branded as sluts for having. Women and girls went to other extreme lengths coz of "feeling so deeply uncomfortable with" being found out to be pregnant and with having children that they would be penalized in myriad ways for conceiving and bringing into the world. Many women died or nearly died as a result, and many of those who survived ended up with lifelong damage to their health too.

How is the distress of girls and women who were in such dire straits over their sexed bodies that they put their lives at risk, and often lost their lives, in these ways so utterly different from - and so much less serious than - the distress that the "gender dysphoric" feel? Why do people with "gender dysphoria" constantly portray "gender dysphoria" as unique, pretend it's the most horrible suffering a human being can feel and claim that no one else has any idea what "gender dysphoria" is like coz no else past or present has ever experienced anything like it?

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not one or the other. Most people who have physical pain have psychological pain along with it. Very often the psychological pain in such cases is focused on the parts of the body, or the bodily processes, that cause the pain or where the pain is most strongly experienced.

But without the physical pain there would be no psychological one. So, no, it is not the same.

In all your lengthy posts throughout this entire thread, you have never once defined "gender dysphoria" or described it in anything but the vaguest terms - "distress" and feeling "deeply uncomfortable." You keep saying what "gender dysphoria" is NOT, but never say what it IS other than dislike, distress, discomfort.

I quote the ICD-10 for its definition of "Transsexualism": A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.

Gender dysphoria is the "discomfort"-component in that description.

Your POV seems to be that the psychological distress and discomfort of "gender dysphoria" is the only kind of human pain that matters. To you, "gender dysphoria" seems to trump all other kinds of pain that human beings are capable of suffering, whether psychological, physical or a combo of both.

All human pain matters, I never said otherwise. I) really don't know why you keep making up absurd, insulting and incorrect accusations.

The experiences of these women is not at all new! I know many women who endured horrible back and neck aches and other physical problems as well as tons of psychic pain and sexual harassment and abuse for years - decades even - coz of their large breasts. They begged for breast reductions and fought with insurers and health care systems like the NHS to get them and usually were refused. They often dreamed of cutting their breasts off and said they often fantasized about taking a sword, carving knife or straight razor (the long bladed "cut throat" variety) to their breasts and getting rid of them once and for all. What's the difference between what those women went through and still go through today and "gender dysphoria"?

These cases are nothing at all alike. As I said, the transgender men's distress had nothing to do with sexual harrasement or physical problems relating to large breasts. They were distressed because their gender identity was male, meaning that having a female anatomy was by its very concept distressing to them, because male anatomy does not include breasts.

Go talk to some older women who are long past our childbearing years about how we feel about our breasts. You'd find that quite a few of us are just as "deeply uncomfortable with having breasts" as the "transmen" you speak of. We might actually be more uncomfortable coz being old, our breasts are big and saggy and fibrous and sometimes tender and painful. Plus, being so saggy, they flop all over the place, making it hard to get into a comfortable enough sleep position to guarantee a sold night of shut eye.

Again, this is not the same phenomena. The problem was not having big/saggy/fibrous/tender breasts, the problem was having breasts at all. Also, the transmen in question were hardly old, so problems developing with age were not relevant.

But whereas "transmen" and women who say they are "non-binary" now can get medically-needless cosmetic surgeries to remove their breasts approved and paid for by insurance and government health plans

they are not "medically needless". They are paid for by insurances/government health plans due to the proven benefical effects of transitional health care for gender dysphoric people.

But really, what distinguishes the discomfort and distress over our breasts that older women like me feel from the distress and discomfort that the "gender dysphoric" feel?

Absoloutly everything. You are just unwilling to understand the difference, because then you would have to start empathizing with transgender people instead of hating them.

Also, this is probably news to you, but before abortion was legal and the morning after pill was widely available, millions of women stuck coat hangers and knitting needles up their vaginas, through their cervixes and into their uteri to abort fetuses coz they felt "so deeply uncomfortable with having" children they could not afford to have, or they would be shamed, ostracized, disowned, kicked out of the house, fired, thrown out of school, excommunicated and forever branded as sluts for having. Women and girls went to other extreme lengths coz of "feeling so deeply uncomfortable with" being found out to be pregnant and with having children that they would be penalized in myriad ways for conceiving and bringing into the world. Many women died or nearly died as a result, and many of those who survived ended up with lifelong damage to their health too.

Yes I already was aware about coathanger abortions, thank you very much. And because I don't want that to happen, I am absoloutly in favor of abortion being legal.

How is the distress of girls and women who were in such dire straits over their sexed bodies that they put their lives at risk, and often lost their lives, in these ways so utterly different from - and so much less serious than - the distress that the "gender dysphoric" feel? Why do people with "gender dysphoria" constantly portray "gender dysphoria" as unique, pretend it's the most horrible suffering a human being can feel and claim that no one else has any idea what "gender dysphoria" is like coz no else past or present has ever experienced anything like it?

First, apologize for your disgustingly vile insinuation that I consider the distress felt by women undergoing coathanger abortions "much less serious". if this discussion were in person, this would be the point where I would leave utterly disgusted by you.

Second, just because the source of the suffering is different, does not mean that one type were "much less serious" than the other. A person with a broken leg and a person in dire need of a heart transplant are both suffering, but the fact that the nature of their suffering is different does not mean that one would be "much less serious than" the other.