Both: Early childhood socialization and what causes people to become trans

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[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, men like Jeffree Star are called "feminine" when what they actually are is flamboyant. Or what used to called "flaming" in US slang before it was decided that this term is pejorative. These guys are strutting, preening, loud-mouthed peacocks, not shy, retiring, modest, soft-spoken wallflowers doing their best not to take up too much space or draw attention to themselves the way girls are women are taught to do.

Many LGBT people do not really fit under the stereotypical, heteronormative views of "masculine" and "feminine".

This is true of many people who are not "LGBT" as well. I'm old - 66 - and I don't know anyone of any sexual orientation from age 97 to 7 who utterly conforms to all the stereotypes for either "masculine" or "feminine" the way so many young people obsessed with today's "gender" ideology seem to assume everyone does and mistakenly assume everyone always has.

For people my generation, and the younger people I know, women with close cropped hair who wear "man-tailored" suits, sensible shoes and are as handy with power tools as with a curling iron and clothes iron are simply normal, everyday women. And men who wear their hair long and eyeliner and/or cook, bake and do needlework are simply normal, everyday men. None of us blinks an eye at men like Dennis Rodman (NBA player who openly wore dresses, makeup and women's lingerie), Kurt Cobain, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith or all the glammed up, made-up long haired hetero rock stars of the 1970s and 80s like Roxy Music, shown here in 1972: https://youtu.be/BonWfTW7jKc

Nor were any of us ever anything but mad for Little Richard from when he first hit it big in the 1950s: https://youtu.be/5ydBkmgJi-g

https://youtu.be/ZSx91WBQLpg

https://youtu.be/znWYjR-0_Os

https://youtu.be/4nFWpRD8UlY

Also, I don't think it's fair to characterize the regressive, rigidly stereotyped views of "masculine" and "feminine" that are so prevalent today as "heteronormative." Men of all sexualities - including the many, many gay men who long have had outsized influence in fashion, advertising, magazine publishing, toy design, the entertainment world, hairdressing, cosmetics and the personal care industry and so on - have created and pushed these stereotypes. Gay men have been major creators and promulgators of the "feminine" stereotypes pushed on girls and women - and they have also been major pushers of macho masculinity, too. For every gay guy like RuPaul or Jeffree Star who goes to great lengths to have a "feminine" or "feminized" appearance, there are two gay guys who seek to "present in" the macho mode lionized by gay men like Robert Mapplethorpe and Tom of Finland.

In the 1970s, the Village People became world famous for songs that both celebrated and made fun of the ultra-masculine stereotypes that gay men pushed onto themselves and other men.

Here from 1978 is "YMCA," named after the McBurney YMCA on 23rd Street in Manhattan, long a gym, hangout and safe haven frequented by gay men, and the place where many young gay men from all over lived when they first arrived in NYC: https://youtu.be/CS9OO0S5w2k

"Macho Man" from a network TV appearance in the USA in 1979: https://youtu.be/YZ1glxX1BiQ

"In The Navy" from an appearance on Dutch TV in 1980: https://youtu.be/Y3p4e-htTHw

Another performance of "Macho Man" also from Dutch TV in 1980 just to show how mainstream they were: https://youtu.be/PUoO4T_23pA Everyone got the double meaning of their act. And no one looked askance, as the blasé attitude of the kids in the studio audience shows.

BTW, Jeffree Star always strikes me as a second-rate, less talented copy of Baltimora, shown here in 1983: https://youtu.be/_r0n9Dv6XnY

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is true of many people who are not "LGBT" as well.

True, I didn't mean to imply otherwise! The worst offenders of this stereotyping are those that believe in gender ideology, not even straight people. I just called it "heteronormative" because that's probably where the idea of "men need to be masculine, so therefore gay men must be feminine because they don't fit in" originated.

It is really shocking that in previous years, people seemed more comfortable with being casually "GNC" than right now!

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is really shocking that in previous years, people seemed more comfortable with being casually "GNC" than right now!

Yes, it is. I often feel like I'm living the life of an "Alien in Genderland." In the 70s, 80s and 90s, nobody thought twice about men wearing long hair, frilly clothes and makeup, or women wearing buzz cuts, shaved heads and men's clothing. I don't consider myself particularly "gender non-conforming" - cuz I tend not to see myself or others through the lens of the sex stereotypes that are "gender" - but I have had very short hair for most of my life (even shaved my head in the 80s), as most women I know have, and I've always worn some boys and men's clothing and accessories.

Used to be, girls and women had to wear men's clothing for various activities coz certain items - such as a lot of sports, workout and outdoor clothing, motorcycle jackets, work coveralls, safety gear, shoes like Vans, Doc Martens, steel-toed work boots and LL Bean boots - originally were only made for men. Also, in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, there were lots of unisex clothing stores and hair salons.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's wild to me. In the 2020s, any female who dresses that way would surely be calling herself "non-binary." But part of that is because of the sheer number of young people identifying as queer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But you don't mean that any female of any age who dresses that way would be calling herself an enby, do you?

The tendency to call one's self "non binary" seems to me to be something exclusive to very young people, and only some young people at that. Of all the people I know, only very few in their 30s, 40s and beyond define themselves according the sex stereotypes they prefer or reject, and hardly anyone feels a need to adopt and flaunt labels that announce to the world which set of sex stereotypes they embrace and which they eschew. This doesn't mean that these people are accepting of sex stereotypes and have never thought of them. On the contrary most people have thought about sex stereotypes growing up and at other junctures in life, and most have decided to reject some, embrace others, put up with some and ignore the bulk.

Most of the older people I know who are into gender labels and "my pronouns" are trans-identified people I've met coz of the new politics around sex and gender. Outside of those small circles, no one I know over age 30 is into gender identity labels - though most of these same people are "gender non-conforming" in myriad ways, particularly according to the the rigid stereotypes many people in their teens and 20s today believe have always been the norm. For example, in my generation (I'm 66), it's quite common for men to be into cooking and baking and various artistic endeavors. But I've had many people now in their early 20s tell me in the past couple of years that cooking and baking, painting and drawing, and playing any musical instrument other than the guitar and drums are things only female people do.