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[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If very feminine little boys were allowed to be very feminine and encouraged to be very feminine, allowed to have dresses and long hair, not shamed for liking toys and other things associated with girls, would fewer of them turn out to be transsexual in adulthood?

Can you explain further what you mean by "feminine" here rather than just "dresses and long hair" and "toys" and "things"?

I find that beyond a liking for dresses, long hair and objects that they and some others consider "girly," most males who call themselves "feminine" and are described by many others (without much thought) as "feminine" actually have very little in common with female people in their behaviors, attitudes, sense of self, level of self-regard and social entitlement. Coz being males, they were not raised as girls and subject to female socialization.

"Feminine" in the case of these male persons usually just seems to mean "not typically or overtly masculine" or "fails to conform in all ways to the most rigid and extreme sex stereotypes of masculinity" in whatever way a particular culture, family or individual defines "masculine."

But not being conventionally masculine is not the same as being like a girl or woman, or having qualities and behaviors typical of female people. Yes, some male persons who get called "feminine" might have aspects of their appearance that looks somewhat like female people's - but this usually does not extend to their personalities and behaviors except when "feminine" is defined in the most superficially sexist and, to me, offensive and inaccurate ways (for example, showing a tendency for giggling, acting coquettish, being catty, not wanting to participate in contact sports, having a penchant for neatness and cleanliness, being squeamish, crying easily, being manipulative).

With a few notable exceptions, the males I've encountered IRL and online who claim to be a woman, or want to be women (or in most cases who want to be "girls"), do not strike me as self-effacing and self-sacrificing types who are always focused on taking care of others, putting other people's feelings first, being kind, swallowing their anger and shutting up and taking their lumps without complaint the way girls customarily are raised to be and to do. On the contrary, again with some exceptions, most of these males come across to me as behaving in ways that are totally opposite. The males I have encountered who say they are trans have tended to be self-centered, extremely concerned with appearances, histrionic, vain, competitive, envious, covetous, demanding, moody, colorful, theatrical, quick to take offense/umbrage and rather loud in making their needs and wishes known. Which to me is about as far from "feminine" as you can get.

Is shame and repression of their true natures causing those children to believe they are the other sex because they fit the other sex's stereotypes better, and thus turn against their own bodies as a result?

First of all, I don't agree that anyone's "true nature" is being "feminine" in the way you've portrayed it - which is to say, wearing dresses, having long hair, liking certain toys and things that are "girly," which in this day and age presumably means pink, plastic and glittery.

I'm sure shame and repression are factors in a lot of cases - but that's also true for most of us whatever our own issues and hangups may be. People with "gender dysphoria" are far from the only ones who experience shame and repression in childhood. Being raised as a human child in human society involves repression by definition - and unfortunately, most of us experience shame growing up too.

In past generations in the West, kids were shamed a whole lot more than has become the norm over the past 40 or so years - used to be, children were shamed as a matter of course. To this day, many non-Western cultures today remain shame-based ones where avoidance of losing face and dishonor are major motivating factors for everyone in those societies.

So why is being "trans" a Western phenomenon that didn't arise until the 20th century? Why is it suddenly cropping up as a wildly popular trend only now in the 21st century? And why is the current fad for being "trans" mainly occurring in well-off countries in the West? (Yes, I know there are "third gender" castes for gay men in various non-Western cultures, but those traditions are very different to present-day transsexualism and transgenderism.)

Moreover, in virtually all cultures, female people have been subject to far more shaming than male children have, and still are, and most girls for most of history have not been allowed to "express their true selves." In fact, girls and women traditionally were told either we didn't have selves, true or false - or if we did have true selves, we better keep them hidden, vague and undeveloped so as not to put off potential mates and so it would be easier to put our selves aside and in favor of fostering our future husbands's selves and self-interests. So why, then, is it that until very recently with the rise of girls developing "gender dysphoria" in adolescence and early adulthood, being "trans" has been mainly a male thing?

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I find that beyond a liking for dresses, long hair and objects that they and some others consider "girly," most males who call themselves "feminine" and are described by many others (without much thought) as "feminine" actually have very little in common with female people in their behaviors, attitudes, sense of self, level of self-regard and social entitlement. Coz being males, they were not raised as girls and subject to female socialization.

Yes I completely agree! Many LGBT people do not really fit under the stereotypical, heteronormative views of "masculine" and "feminine". And they don't need to, and neither do any of us! But people still insist on calling them that anyway.

Somebody else in this thread mentioned Jeffree Star, for example. He is seen as a "GNC" man, or "feminine", because of his appreciation of makeup and the way he looks. But he actually is "proud" and has kind of a domineering personality, which is not usually seen as being feminine at all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, men like Jeffree Star are called "feminine" when what they actually are is flamboyant. Or what used to called "flaming" in US slang before it was decided that this term is pejorative. These guys are strutting, preening, loud-mouthed peacocks, not shy, retiring, modest, soft-spoken wallflowers doing their best not to take up too much space or draw attention to themselves the way girls are women are taught to do.

Many LGBT people do not really fit under the stereotypical, heteronormative views of "masculine" and "feminine".

This is true of many people who are not "LGBT" as well. I'm old - 66 - and I don't know anyone of any sexual orientation from age 97 to 7 who utterly conforms to all the stereotypes for either "masculine" or "feminine" the way so many young people obsessed with today's "gender" ideology seem to assume everyone does and mistakenly assume everyone always has.

For people my generation, and the younger people I know, women with close cropped hair who wear "man-tailored" suits, sensible shoes and are as handy with power tools as with a curling iron and clothes iron are simply normal, everyday women. And men who wear their hair long and eyeliner and/or cook, bake and do needlework are simply normal, everyday men. None of us blinks an eye at men like Dennis Rodman (NBA player who openly wore dresses, makeup and women's lingerie), Kurt Cobain, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith or all the glammed up, made-up long haired hetero rock stars of the 1970s and 80s like Roxy Music, shown here in 1972: https://youtu.be/BonWfTW7jKc

Nor were any of us ever anything but mad for Little Richard from when he first hit it big in the 1950s: https://youtu.be/5ydBkmgJi-g

https://youtu.be/ZSx91WBQLpg

https://youtu.be/znWYjR-0_Os

https://youtu.be/4nFWpRD8UlY

Also, I don't think it's fair to characterize the regressive, rigidly stereotyped views of "masculine" and "feminine" that are so prevalent today as "heteronormative." Men of all sexualities - including the many, many gay men who long have had outsized influence in fashion, advertising, magazine publishing, toy design, the entertainment world, hairdressing, cosmetics and the personal care industry and so on - have created and pushed these stereotypes. Gay men have been major creators and promulgators of the "feminine" stereotypes pushed on girls and women - and they have also been major pushers of macho masculinity, too. For every gay guy like RuPaul or Jeffree Star who goes to great lengths to have a "feminine" or "feminized" appearance, there are two gay guys who seek to "present in" the macho mode lionized by gay men like Robert Mapplethorpe and Tom of Finland.

In the 1970s, the Village People became world famous for songs that both celebrated and made fun of the ultra-masculine stereotypes that gay men pushed onto themselves and other men.

Here from 1978 is "YMCA," named after the McBurney YMCA on 23rd Street in Manhattan, long a gym, hangout and safe haven frequented by gay men, and the place where many young gay men from all over lived when they first arrived in NYC: https://youtu.be/CS9OO0S5w2k

"Macho Man" from a network TV appearance in the USA in 1979: https://youtu.be/YZ1glxX1BiQ

"In The Navy" from an appearance on Dutch TV in 1980: https://youtu.be/Y3p4e-htTHw

Another performance of "Macho Man" also from Dutch TV in 1980 just to show how mainstream they were: https://youtu.be/PUoO4T_23pA Everyone got the double meaning of their act. And no one looked askance, as the blasé attitude of the kids in the studio audience shows.

BTW, Jeffree Star always strikes me as a second-rate, less talented copy of Baltimora, shown here in 1983: https://youtu.be/_r0n9Dv6XnY

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is true of many people who are not "LGBT" as well.

True, I didn't mean to imply otherwise! The worst offenders of this stereotyping are those that believe in gender ideology, not even straight people. I just called it "heteronormative" because that's probably where the idea of "men need to be masculine, so therefore gay men must be feminine because they don't fit in" originated.

It is really shocking that in previous years, people seemed more comfortable with being casually "GNC" than right now!

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is really shocking that in previous years, people seemed more comfortable with being casually "GNC" than right now!

Yes, it is. I often feel like I'm living the life of an "Alien in Genderland." In the 70s, 80s and 90s, nobody thought twice about men wearing long hair, frilly clothes and makeup, or women wearing buzz cuts, shaved heads and men's clothing. I don't consider myself particularly "gender non-conforming" - cuz I tend not to see myself or others through the lens of the sex stereotypes that are "gender" - but I have had very short hair for most of my life (even shaved my head in the 80s), as most women I know have, and I've always worn some boys and men's clothing and accessories.

Used to be, girls and women had to wear men's clothing for various activities coz certain items - such as a lot of sports, workout and outdoor clothing, motorcycle jackets, work coveralls, safety gear, shoes like Vans, Doc Martens, steel-toed work boots and LL Bean boots - originally were only made for men. Also, in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, there were lots of unisex clothing stores and hair salons.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That's wild to me. In the 2020s, any female who dresses that way would surely be calling herself "non-binary." But part of that is because of the sheer number of young people identifying as queer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But you don't mean that any female of any age who dresses that way would be calling herself an enby, do you?

The tendency to call one's self "non binary" seems to me to be something exclusive to very young people, and only some young people at that. Of all the people I know, only very few in their 30s, 40s and beyond define themselves according the sex stereotypes they prefer or reject, and hardly anyone feels a need to adopt and flaunt labels that announce to the world which set of sex stereotypes they embrace and which they eschew. This doesn't mean that these people are accepting of sex stereotypes and have never thought of them. On the contrary most people have thought about sex stereotypes growing up and at other junctures in life, and most have decided to reject some, embrace others, put up with some and ignore the bulk.

Most of the older people I know who are into gender labels and "my pronouns" are trans-identified people I've met coz of the new politics around sex and gender. Outside of those small circles, no one I know over age 30 is into gender identity labels - though most of these same people are "gender non-conforming" in myriad ways, particularly according to the the rigid stereotypes many people in their teens and 20s today believe have always been the norm. For example, in my generation (I'm 66), it's quite common for men to be into cooking and baking and various artistic endeavors. But I've had many people now in their early 20s tell me in the past couple of years that cooking and baking, painting and drawing, and playing any musical instrument other than the guitar and drums are things only female people do.