Looking for both trans and GC people to work towards stopping predators from accessing our respective spaces

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GCdebatesQT)

Hello!

I'm obviously not from around these parts (new account), but I'm on reddit and Ovarit and a small group of us trans and GC people are making a discussion/action group about predators accessing female and trans spaces, and how we can stop this.

If anyone is curious about participating and would like to know more, please DM me (you can also reach me on reddit at u/Fleurista and Ovarit at u/LifeIsArt).

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

So sex segregation? Keep males out regardless of their feelings or identity or outfit?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Yes. The only thing we've agreed on as a group are certain exceptions for trans women with well-documented gender dysphoria, medical treatment, passing (or at least attempting to maybe)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Ah. No thanks. Any male exceptions is unacceptable imo.

[–]censorshipment 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Agree.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I'll add though that we're big proponents for single stall options and third options as well. Personally, a private bathroom is what I'd prefer.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I’d rather keep it easier on the cleaners than compromise women’s rights away to men. Good luck tho I guess.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you!

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Multi-stall loos are better in several respects for women with children in tow, especially children of various ages, including girls who can use a toilet themselves but are too young to go into a rest room without an adult for safety reasons. Multi-stall loos are also more convenient, safer and quicker for girls in pairs and small groups.

Single toilets in enclosed rooms pose more dangers for girls and women than multi-stall communal ones, as they are easier for abusers to push someone into and lock them in - and easier for men to place spy cams in.

Single-room toilets tend to be much dirtier and smellier, especially if used by both sexes, than female-only loos coz boys and men tend to pee all over the seats and floors, their urine often stinks, many males do not bother to flush, and some jerk off in private loos too. Also, many men customarily leave the door unlocked or even ajar, creating the risk of a lot of embarrassment and perhaps worse for girls and women.

Multi-stall communal toilets are also safer for people living with physical issues that can be impairing but which don't qualify as full-blown disabilities. Such as diminished sight and hearing, balance problems, dizzy spells, fainting due to rapid blood pressure changes, or who might suddenly find they need help due to miscarrying or going into labor.

Single toilets in enclosed rooms are far more likely to be taken over by drug addicts or homeless people, and to be vandalized - which means facility managers are much more likely to declare them "out of order" and make them unavailable to anyone. So private toilets often mean no toilets.

Getting rid of men's rooms with urinals is not only inefficient in terms of space, it's very bad for the environment, as urinals use far less water than toilets and need less water and cleanser - and staff time - to keep them clean. Moreover, making all toilets single-use and mixed sex will expose women and girls to far more pathogens coz males in public facilities rarely wash their hands even after they take a crap, and rarely wash after sneezing or coughing into their hands or touching their noses and mouths - and when males do wash their hands, they are far less likely than females to do so correctly. This means women and girls will come into many more pathogens in kind and quantity by having to use toilets - even private ones - in which they'll be touching door handles, locks, flush levers, faucets, soap dispensers and loo rolls that have also been touched by a bunch of males.

Professionals have put a great deal of thought over many, many decades into the best way to design and provide toilet provisions to the two sexes that is fair, safe, hygienic and best for the environment. You and your allies seem to want to disregard all this history and learning - and also to ignore and override the needs and best interests of all other groups, and even the needs of some of yourselves at later times in your lives - to meet your own personal preferences in the present.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You make a lot of really good points. It almost would seem best if in all locations, multi stall communal restrooms for each respective sex, as well as unisex single stall toilets that do already exist, all be implemented. I guess if single stall unisex options were available more readily, that might address everyone's concerns. Women wouldn't have to use them if they didn't want to, and trans people would have a restroom that no one would be upset if they used. You provided a lot of reasons not to make changes, so I'm curious what changes you would suggest then. You expressed your concern for natal women's safety, convenience and comfort; If you're willing to entertain the thought, independent of your concern for trans people or not in this debate, what would you think would be safest, most convenient and most comfortable solution to accommodate them?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's fair! If you're ever curious to learn more about the group and chat with the gc people, feel free to send a message!

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Does this group include all women? I guess not, so, why do you think you can decide for all women what exceptions they must allow in sex segregated spaces.

Why QT never seems to consider to campaign for third spaces? If safety is the only concern here, trans natal males certainly don't need to look for it in women's only spaces.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Me specifically, or do you mean the group? The group is collaborative, so we all have equal input. Me, I can only try to find and call out non-trans people who are claiming to be trans. Pushing for third spaces is something we all believe in and like, particularly just gender/sex neutral single stalls. Safety is the concern for cis/natal women as well as trans people, for our respective spaces. I don't want non-trans creeps in our trans community spaces, nor do I or natal/cis women want them in women-only spaces. That's the kind of safety we're talking about, keeping predators and non-trans men pretending to be trans out of those spaces. This isn't a platform for trans women to push for access to female-only spaces, so that's not really part of the discussion. This group is about focusing on what GC people and trans people mutually agree on already, not what we may disagree on.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I meant your group, but it can be applied to trans natal males in general, I guess. In your previous comment you said your group agreed to allow a exception for trans natal males in women's only spaces as long they have a diagnostic of gender dysphoria. Am I interpreting this right or not?

The fact is women had a good way to filter predators by disallowing the entrance of any man in places like bathrooms, changing rooms, etcetera. That is a good system because, while not all men are sexual predators, we women have no way to know which ones are predators and which ones are not. It's also a matter of privacy. Just because a man is not a predator it doesn't mean women may want to share such intimate spaces with him.

However, trans males, even the ones who don't believe in self-ID, often feel entitled to enter to women's only spaces regardless of how we feel about this. Using the diagnostic of gender dysphoria is not good enough because is not possible to enforce it and a clinical diagnostic is not a guarantee that a person is not a predator. Furthermore, a trans male may be the nicest person in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that many women would be unconfortable to share such spaces with him because of his sex. I know there are women who are willing to make special exceptions over this issue, but they don't speak for all women.

I asked you about third spaces because this seems like good solution for the safety of trans people and it has the benefict that it doesn't allienate half the population. Despite that, trans people quite often don't suggest it as a possible compromise. Actually, most of them are completely oppossed to this arrangement.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Our group agreed that certain trans women with well-documented and treated gender dysphoria should be allowed in those spaces; so none of us really see it as a universal requirement, but might be more appropriately judged or assessed case by case. I can't really elaborate on behalf of anyone else in the group, but like you I don't think just a diagnosis of gender dysphoria alone should qualify for acceptance because the diagnosis has been revised in such a way that anyone could be diagnosed with gender dysphoria if they wanted to, and it's over-diagnosed. It used to be synonymous with transsexualism, but that is very much not the case anymore and transsexual people make up a minority of people diagnosed with gender dysphoria. And as you said, it doesn't preclude a person from being a predator. I've personally been sexually harassed and creeped on by people diagnosed with gender dysphoria, which is part of what became the reason I started trying to get a discussion and action plan going in the first place.

Third options seem to be the best solution for everyone, honestly. They're even safer for everyone. The only reason I would not want to use them is if they were specifically labelled as being for transgender people, I would never want to out myself and I have a feeling that many transgender people might feel similarly. If the third spaces were just typical unisex single stalls, that would be great. I personally hate using public restrooms anyways and use those when they're available.

edit: to give a bit more background about me and the reason this group started is because I wrote about this problem on reddit and it was shared on Ovarit. I started spending time on Ovarit and seeing all of the examples of predators and murders and rapists and child molesters there is what peaked me and convinced me that maybe we (trans people) could work together with gender critical feminists to stop these people. I understand there's a lot of tension and ill feelings either group may harbor for each other, but I think we can help each other by having trans people starting to call out and speak out about these people and this problem more--speaking up about real problems from a gender critical perspective, and in turn gender critical feminists may help actual trans people by advocating for solutions that help trans people, like pushing for third restroom options instead of just saying "use the men's room". Working together will likely lead to a more permanent solution a lot quicker than both parties just calling each other names and generalizing whole groups of people based on a few rotten apples.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for clarifying.

In regards to third spaces, I think it's something you should talk more with fellow trans people, really. As I said, they're the ones who seem to be more likely to be oppossed to it (in my view, that's because they're looking for validation rather than safety). Ultimately, this is something that sould come from trans people themselves. And right now anyone else who even try to suggest it, it's quickly labeled as a transphobe.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

None of us are fans of the self-ID stuff. Not getting legal protections just because you say you're something with no other basis or anything to back up what you claim.

[–]censorshipment 9 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 7 fun -  (46 children)

Hmm predators? Call them what they are: men. As I said in a TwoX post on Reddit... we don't know who the "bad men" are until it's too late and a woman/child has been harmed. Seems like you all only want to focus on men who have been caught and have criminal records, such as men who want to be in women's prisons, but there are millions of predatory men among us, and we don't know who they are... so assuming all men are predatory is what I intend to do and tell other women/girls to do. Don't trust anyone born male.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (45 children)

No we want to call all these non-transgender men out, especially before they actually do cause harm. Having met a number of creeps irl who claim to be transgender but have harassed me, I want to be able to call these people out. We generally take a more truscum view in believing in gender dysphoria needing to be diagnosed, established treatment, all of that. I'm especially worried about the men in our spaces who haven't done anything (yet) and are flying under the radar on legal technicalities.

[–]comradeconradical 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (44 children)

Truscum are still very sexist. They may be better than transtrenders and predators on the surface, but their cause is still insidious.

The solution is not to allow any males into female spaces, regardless of their internal identity or the superficial surgeries and treatments they've had.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (43 children)

I respect your views. I'm guessing you wouldn't want to participate in our group based on your answer.

[–]comradeconradical 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (42 children)

Oh, is refusing all males in female spaces not a valid approach to mitigating predators in said spaces? Okay then.

I've also ventured to ask how this can be, but no one has been able to argue a good point differentiating between 'good faith' trans and 'bad faith' trans. Has your group had any progress on the topic?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Idk why we can’t just have female spaces. Someone’s always got some man in mind that ~deserves~ an exception.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Right??

But didn't you know it's offensive to male feelings and handmaiden woke sensibilities to acknowledge sex based rights? :/

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I forgot Nigel living as nigella for at least 12 months means literal incapacity for violence or perversion. My b.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

LMAO omg the amount of times I've encountered this very argument unironically... "6 months on estrogen makes a male a valid female" PLEASE

Btw I always love reading your comments, thank you for sharing :)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Such a random window to decide they have done some sailor moon style transformation into a dainty wee girl. Why is it always 6 months? Ahaha we mutual fans of each other’s comments.

[–]againstpedorights 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Right

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (35 children)

Our group has discussed this and we plan to discuss it further with more members. As I stated in a reply to another person in this thread we all agree that case by case scrutiny is the best way to make that decision. Long-standing, well documented gender dysphoria or transsexualism with thorough treatment is part of the solution that we all agree on. We also are all in favor of pushing for more installation of private unisex stalls that already exist and are widely used.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

Ok, so you don't want me as a member because I'm contrary to your opinion, or what?

I always advocate for third spaces for transgendered people. That is the best solution to keeping female spaces safe.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

Our group was founded on mutual agreement and respect. Since it consists of GC feminists and trans people, both groups of people are working on common goals, not just focusing on one group's needs and protection, but both. If a person might disregard or debate the legitimacy or needs of one group but not the other, this is not the group for them.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Which to some looks like a feminist group arguing to make female spaces open to males who perform femininity at an acceptable level, an anti feminist act.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

I suppose that's where some gender critical feminists will disagree with each other. I can't really speak on those members' behalf.

[–]comradeconradical 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hm why should any male NEED to access female spaces though? I think both groups would benefit from third spaces.

Is it disrespectful to acknowledge the different needs of both groups? This reminds me of being called a bigot for realizing biological differences do matter. What other solutions have you determined other than separation?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Everyone would surely benefit from more unisex single stalls. I don't have any reason why any male should other than certain trans women (trying to use the lingo here, sorry if I'm making anything confusing).

It's not disrespectful to acknowledge different needs at all and both groups acknowledge our different needs, but we're all people coming together based on our shared beliefs. We respect each others' different needs. We are just starting the group and trying to find people to get involved, so we haven't come up with anything beyond that yet. This post was created in the hopes that we could find more people to further the discussion :)

[–]Juniperius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The only way case by case scrutiny makes sense is if you're talking about a limited community. In a particular group of say, <100 people, someone can be given a pass by the group because everyone knows them and that pass can theoretically be revoked for bad behavior. But if you're talking about the wider world, about getting a pass from a therapist or governmental body or whatever and going out in public with it, around people who haven't been part of the decision making process, then a) you're involving people who haven't consented and b) no matter what your system is it can always be gamed by bad actors.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Aren't most trans people who pass completely and live "stealth" de facto already being given a pass by default by no one being the wiser that they were trans? They demonstrated that they have integrated into society. I say this because many if not most of these people might just ignore whatever legislation that targeted trans people, because no one knows they're trans anyway and they would likely want to keep it that way. There's a good possibility they wouldn't out themselves, because they aren't predatory men. Most actual trans people just want to blend in and just live their lives. The system to be legally and socially considered trans is already being gamed by bad actors, specifically so they can hide behind transsexualism and use actual trans people as a shield.

Here's the thing: we can probably best solve the problem without legislation. A lot of us trans people want to call out and stop bad people claiming to be trans, and a lot of non-trans people want to do the same. A lot of trans people would want to work with non-trans people together to help stop this problem, but a lot of non-trans people view trans people and people who hide behind transgenderism to hurt others the same, so trans people are too scared to approach non-trans people who do this. Many non-trans people have had bad experiences with trans people, or more likely people who hide behind transgenderism, so they have stopped supporting trans people or just don't like them. They see them all being the same.

[–]Juniperius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Pro-tip: "You can't stop us, because we are the best liars" isn't a really good argument as to why you are different from predators.

Pragmatically it is true that we can't stop men who fully pass as women from entering our private spaces. This does not translate to them having a right, or us giving them a pass. Would the invisible man have a right, or a pass, to go in women's bathrooms? Does any man have a right to place a small, unnoticeable camera in the women's bathrooms? Does someone's younger sibling have a right to sneak into their bedroom and read their diary? Did Bruce Jenner have a pass to wear his daughter's underwear until she caught him? If I don't know someone is violating my privacy, I can't object, but that makes it more of a violation, not less.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, putting it like that sounds quite awful! Do you have a suggestion for a solution that might help everyone?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I don't think it is possible at all. There no way to say which male is safe and which male is predator. Creepy looking old guy can be the nicest person on Earth, and nicely looking handsome man can be serial killer.

This phrase was repeated many times here, but I like what Duncan once said: "Only men who are safe in female spaces are the ones who would not enter them at all, even if they will get full permission to do so".

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

We agree that men shouldn't have access to women's spaces, too. But men pretending to be women, faux trans? That's where both groups have problems, in women's spaces and trans spaces.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You can't say which of them are safe or unsafe too. Even homosexual ones can be dangerous to women (my ex-boyfriend as an example - he have very deep hate for women and transitioned because of huge homophobia from parents and internalized homophobia).

And I see no reason why they need any more laws or protections than they already had with old GRA variant. It is already giving sex change in most legal documents, it require surgeries that are making them to "pass" much stronger, and there so few of them, that it is not really a big issue anyways (only 4910 were in UK, for example, while transgender people in UK is more than 500 thousands).

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No one is asking for more laws and legal protections in this group, at least yet. We're still just getting the conversation started. We can at least do what we can to spot and call out the ones we can see as being unsafe. Obviously dangerous people can and do blend in and appear normal and nice, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to stop them. If anything, we should work even harder to find these men.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hm, by "female and trans spaces" you meant two separated types spaces in your post? You are advocating for third spaces then? There should be 4 then, as transmen and transwomen are different.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I've said it elsewhere on here, but yes, all of us are in favor of a third space, honestly just increasing the amount of single stall unisex bathrooms that have already existed for a while and are everywhere already.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've seen such idea before, that instead of big public toilets, put a lot of unisex rooms with single toilet and washbin per room. Idea is decent, but it will take a ton of space and resources to build and maintain them in public spaces.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It may be quite an undertaking that would take a lot of time and money to implement everywhere, but if it keeps people safer and happier, it's worth working towards in my mind :)

[–]Taln_Reich 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hello Fleurista (seen you both on the reddit as another member of r/truscum and the ovarit side while lurking there). For the trans side, I would suggest reinstating the Truscum /transmed criteria of needing gender dysphoria to be considered trans. Sure, a predator can legitemately have gender dysphoria, but at least it is less open to abuse then the ultra-soft tucute criteria of "If you say you are trans, you are, no matter what".

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We've discussed this as a group, and are all in agreement: we view things from a truscum perspective/transmed perspective. Self ID all day long, but you shouldn't have access to medical treatments and certain spaces without genuine, well-documented gender dysphoria and treatment. I personally am for reforming the criteria for gender dysphoria as a diagnosis, but we're definitely focused on keeping non-trans people out of places they shouldn't be, especially for safety's sake

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Sure, I'd be interested in learning more about it. But I'm only active on Ovarit and Saidit and I still have my Reddit account (same name everywhere), so I don't necessarily want to join a new platform.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cool! And that's fair. Zulip is kind of like Discord + Reddit and we thought that might be a good place to avoid conflict. A lot of GC people don't want to go to reddit and we were concerned a lot of trans people wouldn't want to go to Saidit, so a new platform was our thinking of a halfway point. I'll message you more info though!

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

What happens to cis women who are predators?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Good question! We haven't really discussed that, but at the same time that's not really a problem anyone has heard of or encountered at this time that I'm aware of. I'm certainly anti-predator of either sex, though.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

None of you have ever encountered a case with a cis woman as a sexual predator? That seems unlikely

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Why unlikely? Female predators are extremely rare and they heterosexual in majority of cases, so ones that pose danger to women percent is so small, that it is not really a problem, unlike male predators, who are mostly heterosexual as well and are predators 500%-5000% times more often than women, and who are much stronger and faster than women (unlike other women) which makes it systematic and more dangerous issue. Unisex public toilets have 9 times more rape cases happening with male offender than sex-segregated spaces, and female offender almost never happening (uness you call transwomen - females, then it happening sometimes, but they are males, stronger than women and have male criminal tendencies, so should not be put into female crime statistics).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

5% of all assaults on women being perpetrated by other women isn’t really that rare.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That is a very-very huge number, where you got it from? And it mathematically not adds up at all: 98-99% of rapists are men, 80-85% of their victims are women and 15-20% are men. So only 1-2% of rapists are female. For them to rape 5% of all female victims - EACH of female rapist need to rape at least 25-50 different women. And most female rapists are raping younger men (in most cases ones they know already, their friends or husbands, not random strangers - as they can't overpower a stranger and need some trust from a men's side), this means that this number must go even more up, as maybe only 0.05-0.1% of all rapists are females on females, so each need to rape 500-1000 different women. And most of female on female rapes are happening with presense of a male rapist as well, or it happening in military or prisons. So this just makes no sense.

Maybe you mean that among those 1-2% rapists who are female, 5% of them raped a woman? This will make it 0.05-0.1% of all rapists. This means that for every convicted 2000 male rapists (or around 10000 unconvicted) there will be one famale who may rape a woman.

And in general - 5%? There not enough lesbians and bisexual women to rape other women that often, and what point for heterosexual woman on doing so? So it makes even less sense here as well.

If you include transwomen - then yes, number can be that big. Most countries are conflating transwomen and women or transwomen with men, so I will go with UK, where they were holding statistics: in the UK there were only 60-65 women in prison imprisoned for sexual assault, including just light sexual harassment, or prostitution, mostly against young men they know personally (out of 3400 female prisoners, so 1.7-1.9% of women, or 0.087% of all prisoners), and 70 transwomen imprisoned for raping a woman (out of 158 transwomen prisoners, or 44%), for men number was 16.5 thousands men imprisoned for rape, only around 3-4 thousands of them for lesser sexual assaults (out of 72 thousand male prisoners, 23% full or 17.5% if counting only rape).

This means that adding transwomen to "women crimes" - will increase amount of "women" rapists by 2 times, and will increase amount of women being raped by "women+transwomen" category by around 40-60 times approximately. Same as recently after counting transwomen as women - in just one year paedo cases of "women" category "in last 10 years" increased by 84%, in other words transwomen did up to 84% of paedo crimes that females did in previous 9 years.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Source for the 5% number:

https://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Faculty/bibs/stemple/Stemple-SexualVictimizationPerpetratedFinal.pdf

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think I remember this report, it had a lot of issues in it, I just don't remember what was there.

And it is only surveys, thought.

the surveys have found that men and women had a similar 12-month prevalence of nonconsensual sex (i.e., 1.9 million women and 1.9 million men were raped or made to penetrate in 2011 data)

There was greater divergence by sex in lifetime reports. In 2011, for example, 19.3% of women reported having been raped in their lifetime. 1.7% of men reported being raped, under the CDC's narrow definition of rape, which is limited to penetration of the victim, and 6.7% of men reported being “made to penetrate” someone (also a form of nonconsensual sex) in their lifetime.

If men and women yearly raped the same amount, but amount of women is growing and men is not, this means that it is same men who are raped every year, while women are every year different ones. Looks like men are mostly living in abusive relationships, while women are randomly raped on streets or by people they know.

female perpetrators (acting without male coperpetrators) were reported in 28.0% of rape/sexual assault incidents involving male victims and 4.1% of incidents involving female victims.

I think you mean this nubmer. So there 4.1%, not 5% as you said, still surprisingly huge number, considering other statistics and that men are 5 times more often reporting sexual violence to police than women.

among men reporting other forms of sexual victimization, 68.6% reported female perpetrators

68.6% of 1.9 millions is 1.3 millions. So 1.3 million men are raped or forced to penetrate by women, while women are perpetuators only in 28% of sexual assaults? This means same that I've said before, that every sexually abusive woman is abusing a lot of men and does this repeatedly with same men year after year. Or this number was to other survey? There are few surveys, which are often not named when used, so it can get confused, some surveys there had just 200-300 people in them.

Among alladult prisoners reporting any type of staff sexual victimization, 80.0% reported only female perpetrators. An additional 5.1% reported both male and female perpetrators

Looks like big percent of female on female sexual assaults are coming from prisons or military, what is expectable.

A 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43% reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95% reported only female perpetrators. The authors defined sexual coercion broadly, including verbal pressure such as nagging and begging, which, the authors acknowledge, increases prevalence dramatically.

begging is most common form of coercion against men

Lol.

Sadly coercion against women it is almost never just begging.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Don't most female perpetrators offend with people they know?

I haven't really heard of women attacking strangers.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I saw a trans man posting the other day about how when he was very young a woman tried to abduct him from a playground but ran off when she saw his parents

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Welp it must be true and also indicative of women being extra predatory. Pack away the stats we’ve got this anecdote.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Depending on how young he was, that woman may have been looking to abduct him for parenting purposes, not sex abuse.

Regardless, women are very statistically unlikely to carry out sex attacks on strangers.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is exclusively in the context of sexual predators who are accessing opposite sex-segregated spaces and transgender community spaces, especially when using transgender and self-ID laws and protections to access these spaces. There are cis female sexual predators, but in this context no one has really seen it or reported anything.

[–]Terfenclaw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Personally, I feel the only exception should be for passing transwomen using female restrooms because 1) their presence doesn't break down social norms of males being forbidden from the area and 2) if they really are that stealth, then it'd be impossible to enforce restrictions anyway.

However, out of respect for natal women, I think it would be better if they used a third, private space instead of women's restrooms though. There are a lot of transwomen that are deluded about how well they pass.

The problem with making an exception for transwomen with well documented gender dysphoria is that we'll still have AGPs and other fetishists claiming dysphoria to get into our private spaces. And how would it work? Do transwomen have a "true trans" card that they show? It wouldn't work. It's not exactly that difficult for trans people to lie to therapists, and even without that there's enormous pressure to affirm lest therapists be labeled transphobic.

I really think a third, private space with full length stalls is the best solution for this. And that place should be for trans people with well documented gender dysphoria. Do not hide behind women to protect yourself from AGPs, thus making women less safe.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one should be hiding behind anyone. I think the trans women who pass and live quiet, "stealth" lives always have and will continue to blend in. The don't think the "real" trans people, the people with classic early-onset transsexualism, are the ones that anyone sees. The trans people that we're all seeing are something else; they're people who've creeped into transsexual space and claimed it for themselves. I'm not saying anyone but transsexuals should be concerned with that, but I and many transsexual people resent them being in our spaces and claiming our healthcare and our experiences for themselves, not too dissimilarly from how natal women feel about transwomen. But actual "stealth" trans women who grew up with and have always lived with early onset transsexualism or HSTS aren't the ones trying to claim women's bodies and spaces for ourselves; we know full well we aren't biologically female, our sex isn't the same, and that our perceptions are just our perceptions. We're not the ones pushing for all of these laws to protect trans access; the older laws, such as being able to change birth certificates and licenses and such were intended to help us blend in as normal people.

This speaks to concerns that only actual trans women have about there needing to be some distinction between us and these people who claim to be us. If it were up to us, we wouldn't be trans, we wouldn't be called transsexual or transgender. We generally hate being what we are as it is, now compounded by the fact that we're being included with AGP people and non-classic transsexuals people, especially the pervs, creeps and predators who attack and harass us, too. Again, I'm not implying that anyone needs to care about this, I'm just trying to give context from a transsexual woman's or homosexual (in the classic Blanchard sense) transsexual person's point of view. I'd really like to get rid of this transgender rights movement, I see it doing loads more harm than good. Self ID is wrong.

And speaking from my own perspective, I would never do anything that outed my history as a transsexual person or implied I might be trans. Not only am I ashamed of and embarrassed by my condition, but for my own safety and peace of mind, I wouldn't do anything to reveal that part of me. The only reason I'm speaking on here and in truscum and GC circles trying to get people together is not only because I empathize with natal women and not want them to get hurt, but I cannot sit back and watch children get hurt. I grew up always wanting to have children and seeing myself as a mother, and also having been abused as a child myself it enrages me to see people take advantage of and hurt children. I'll out myself if it means it saves another human being, especially children.

Thanks for attending my TED talk. But seriously, I don't mean to soapbox nor be all "woe is me, help me" here, I just want to give a bit of context from at least one transsexual woman's/natal man who presents as a woman's perspective and why I'm here and why this all means so much to me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And what happens in situations where there is no third space available? You know like most places.