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[–]comradeconradical 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Transmen are female, which is why when they talk about something related to female biology, obviously females will relate.

In fact, the fact they complain just shows more of how desperate they are to create distance between themselves and women, which is ill founded as again, they are female just as women are, and all females have their breasts objectified.

I don't understand your transwoman comparison. You post is also cut off, so you might wanna edit it...

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 12 fun1 insightful - 11 fun2 insightful - 12 fun -  (18 children)

Trans men are not female and that is the point. There is a thread on Reddit titled Trans men of reddit, what problems do you deal with that people of other identities don't know or think about?. Here is a quote from a comment:

One final thing I'd like to say has to do with what I call benevolent transphobia, which is when people believe that we are men, sort of, but more like men-lite or "good" men who have been socialized as women, which lends us all of our positive characteristics that they value, and which off-set our negative man qualities. An example of this is when people say that trans men are better than cis men because we understand what it's like to be women - no, honestly, I do not. I only know what it's like to be dysphoric in a woman's body.

Yes there are some experiences exclusive to people AFAB, like periods. But when trans men experience periods, they experience it as trans men and may be different from what cis women experience. For example in this article, a trans man wrote:

A period in and of itself can be uncomfortable for any individual, and being transgender adds another emotional layer to that.

The reason I brought up trans women is because if trans women started replying about not being allowed to show their breasts and trans men called them out, GC would make a post about how trans women are evil, narcissistic, AGP, etc. Yet when cis women do the same thing they get upset when trans men call it out.

This is why I can't stand when GC complains trans women talk over trans men. I mean, if one group is talking over the other it should be pointed out, but when trans men point out GC talking over them, GCs get upset or don't use the criticism to change their ways. Like, don't criticize people for something you do yourself.

I edited my post to finish the sentence that somehow wasn't typed. Thank you for pointing it out.

[–]strictly 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Trans men are not female and that is the point.

They are female. I don't care if they acknowledge it or not as it doesn't change that they remain female. I am not going to lie for anyone, including these adult human females.

when trans men experience periods, they experience it as trans men

They experience it as female people as female people are the only one who can menstruate. Had they been men they would never have menstruated even once in their life as men never menstruate.

A period in and of itself can be uncomfortable for any individual, and being transgender adds another emotional layer to that.

Me hating getting periods has an emotional layer to it too as I hate knowing I can get pregnant. Female people can have all sorts of feelings (including wanting to be a man), and it doesn't make anyone a man.

GC would make a post about how trans women are evil, narcissistic, AGP

I wouldn't. Many adult human males who want to women are AGP though but that's just a fact, just like many adult human females who want to be men are AAP. I am not going to ignore facts just because it hurt their feelings.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 9 fun1 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 9 fun -  (16 children)

They are female. I don't care if they acknowledge it or not as it doesn't change that they remain female. I am not going to lie for anyone, including these adult human females.

Biologically, yes. But socially they are men. For instance, I am a cis woman and so are most GC people (although they don't use the term cis). Although we are both biologically female I don't agree with many of the things they say about trans women. I don't feel trans women are oppressing me. But I don't go on Ovarit and other GC spaces telling GCs they aren't oppressed by trans women. It's their spaces. They can speak about the oppression they face as GC women, as long as they don't speak for me and cis women who don't want to be spoken for. Trans men should be able to discuss their oppression without cis women interfering.

They experience it as female people as female people are the only one who can menstruate. Had they been men they would never have menstruated even once in their life as men never menstruate.

They experience periods as men.

Me hating getting periods has an emotional layer to it too as I hate knowing I can get pregnant. Female people can have all sorts of feelings (including wanting to be a man), and it doesn't make anyone a man.

A trans person's experience with periods and a cis person's experience with periods are entirely different.

I wouldn't. Many adult human males who want to women are AGP though but that's just a fact, just like many adult human females who want to be men are AAP. I am not going to ignore facts just because it hurt their feelings.

Many would though. For example, there is a thread on Ovarit titled TIFs need to notice how little TIMs actually care about them.... They literally discuss how trans men only ever complain about trans women harassing them and not trans men and when they point it out they are silenced. GC has numerous times made posts about trans women talking over trans men, even on the old GC sub. Yet somehow its OK for cis women to talk over trans men, and when trans men point it out, they are called misogynists. It's a double standard. If you support trans men calling people out, you can't decide which groups they are allowed to call out and which groups they aren't allowed to call out.

[–]strictly 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Biologically, yes. But socially they are men.

A man is an adult human male, that’s biological, not social. Having different social categories for men and women is what we call sexism, something I am against.

as long as they don't speak for me and cis women

If you have a gender identity we are not speaking for you, we are speaking for people who don’t have gender identities and therefor don’t want to be labeled with false cisgender gender identities.

Trans men should be able to discuss their oppression without cis women interfering.

We are not cisgender. I don’t mind you having a gender identity, your mind, your business, but we speak for our own minds and we don’t have gender identities. Regarding freeing the nipple, female nipples being seen as indecent is the business of every female person, not just the business of female trans people so every female person should be able to speak about it.

They experience periods as men.

Men are adult human males and never experience periods so no.

A trans person's experience with periods and a cis person's experience with periods are entirely different.

People are individuals so there are billions of different of emotions people can have regarding their periods so every individual’s experience with periods will be unique. The way female trans people talk about their experience with periods is relatable to me though. I don’t know your experience with periods but as you talked about periods being emotionally uncomfortable for trans people as a supposed difference between them and people with cisgender gender identities like yourself it seems you don’t find your own period uncomfortable so I would probably relate to your experience much less.

Many would though.

You made a specific claim that we would accuse male trans people for being evil if they were for freeing the nipple, and I said I wouldn’t call anyone evil for wanting to free the nipple. Now you are talking about something else and about people I’m not.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

A man is an adult human male, that’s biological, not social. Having different social categories for men and women is what we call sexism, something I am against.

Most of us don't define ourselves by our biology.

If you have a gender identity we are not speaking for you, we are speaking for people who don’t have gender identities and therefor don’t want to be labeled with false cisgender gender identities.

Fair point.

We are not cisgender. I don’t mind you having a gender identity, your mind, your business, but we speak for our own minds and we don’t have gender identities. Regarding freeing the nipple, female nipples being seen as indecent is the business of every female person, not just the business of female trans people so every female person should be able to speak about it.

This was about trans men being allowed to show their nipple, not women. Women can speak about their oppression in different spaces.

Men are adult human males and never experience periods so no.

Some men experience periods.

People are individuals so there are billions of different of emotions people can have regarding their periods so every individual’s experience with periods will be unique. The way female trans people talk about their experience with periods is relatable to me though. I don’t know your experience with periods but as you talked about periods being emotionally uncomfortable for trans people as a supposed difference between them and people with cisgender gender identities like yourself it seems you don’t find your own period uncomfortable so I would probably relate to your experience much less.

I hate my period. I wish it didn't exist. I take birth control to stop my period. However, I'm not going to claim my experience is necessarily the same as trans men's. For instance, a trans man wrote an article about how getting his period made him feel like less of a man. I don't know any (cis) women who say getting their period makes them feel like less of a man. For instance in this thread, a trans man was devastated that he got his period. I know about this thread because Ovarit made a thread mocking him. I always dreaded my period, but I was never devastated and distraught over this.

You made a specific claim that we would accuse male trans people for being evil if they were for freeing the nipple, and I said I wouldn’t call anyone evil for wanting to free the nipple. Now you are talking about something else and about people I’m not.

My problem is GCs constantly complain about trans women talking over trans men but talk over trans men themselves. I know my OP is not the examples, so I'll use another. On Reddit, a trans man made a thread about how some trans women talk over trans men, but emphasized not all trans women do this. GC in the old sub made a thread responding to the post. They said in the title the trans women are over sexualized, even though trans men never accused trans women of being oversexualized in that thread. They talk about how trans women are narcissistic and don't care about these poor trans men who should return to their sisters who love them. Yet GCs talk over trans men themselves. For instance, when they insist trans men transition due to misogyny or being lesbians in denial, even when actual trans men say that's not the case. Heck, when r/GenderCritical was banned, r/FTM made a thread about how happy they were that the sub was banned. There are a few other threads talking about how much they hated gender critical and "TERFs", how GC folks make them uncomfortable. From my research of that sub alone, there are more threads complaining about GCs than threads complaining about trans women. Yet when trans men ask women not to speak over them, GCs insult them. What is the difference between trans women speaking over trans men and cis/natal women speaking over trans men? Both groups are speaking over trans men.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't know any (cis) women who say getting their period makes them feel like less of a man

On the contrary, I would say virtually all women that you consider 'cis' understand that menstruating makes them 'less of ' (read: not at all) a man. They may not make a habit of expressing this to others, but that's just because it goes without saying.

You say most people don't define themselves by their biology, but when it comes to classifying oneself into the categories of man or women, virtually all of us do make this classification on the basis of biology: women understand that they are by definition not men (adult human males, as per every English language dictionary), because of the reality of their biology, which includes the potential of menstruation.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

On the contrary, I would say virtually all women that you consider 'cis' understand that menstruating makes them 'less of ' (read: not at all) a man.

Because cis women are not men. Trans men are men.

You say most people don't define themselves by their biology, but when it comes to classifying oneself into the categories of man or women, virtually all of us do make this classification on the basis of biology: women understand that they are by definition not men (adult human males, as per every English language dictionary), because of the reality of their biology, which includes the potential of menstruation.

Well trans people exist and so does the concept of gender identity, so not everyone defines themselves by biology.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because cis women are not men.

Yes, and you made a claim that 'cis' women don't base this on their potential to menstraute: this is wrong. This (being female) is the sole metric most women use.

Well trans people exist and so does the concept of gender identity, so not everyone defines themselves by biology.

Do you know what 'virtually all of us' means? I'll give you a hint: it doesn't mean 'everyone'.

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Most of us don't define ourselves by our biology.

I don’t define myself by my biology either but I know I have one. Being an adult human female is just a fact, nothing else.

This was about trans men being allowed to show their nipple

The nipples of female trans people are not targeted more than the nipples of other female people so there is no need for a conversation just about about the nipples of female trans people when all female people have the same problem. TikTok is not a trans exclusive space either.

Some men experience periods.

Anyone experiencing a period is by definition not a man so no.

a trans man wrote an article about how getting his period made him feel like less of a man. I don't know any (cis) women who say getting their period makes them feel like less of a man.

Periods not inducing manly feelings is pretty common overall and not limited to trans people. Women rather wanting to be men is not that unusual either.

I always dreaded my period, but I was never devastated and distraught over this.

Periods are physically a nuisance but it’s not the reason I hate it, my first period was traumatic as it made me aware of having a female reproductive system and I hated knowing that. It seems you think a trans person’s emotional experience is always entirely different from a the experience of a non-trans person. If that was true I would believe female trans people never dislike being female, as I dislike being female and female trans people supposedly always feel entirely different, aka, they must in contrary like being their biological sex lot.

My problem is GCs constantly complain about trans women talking over trans men but talk over trans men themselves.

Aren’t you doing the same thing then? You complain about GCs talking over female trans people despite you not being a female trans person yourself. So either it’s okay to complain about how other groups treat female trans people despite not being a female trans person (including GC) or it’s not okay for anyone (including you).

r/FTM made a thread about how happy they were that the sub was banned

I bet male trans people did a thread celebrating the ban too.

From my research of that sub alone, there are more threads complaining about GCs than threads complaining about trans women.

You seem to think I would find that surprising. I am not GC because I think female trans people support GC, I don't really care if they support GC or not. I'm GC because I am critical of gender. I am GC because I don't think sex can be changed and it goes against my moral principles to lie about trans people being the opposite sex.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t define myself by my biology either but I know I have one. Being an adult human female is just a fact, nothing else.

Many of us have gender identities beyond our biology. I was born female, but even if I wasn't, I would still identify as a woman. Even now I identify as a woman based on my gender identity, not my biology.

The nipples of female trans people are not targeted more than the nipples of other female people so there is no need for a conversation just about about the nipples of female trans people when all female people have the same problem. TikTok is not a trans exclusive space either.

Those men were speaking for themselves as trans men, not as females. GCs always talk about the need for female only spaces, so I don't understand why they don't understand that trans men also need their own spaces.

Anyone experiencing a period is by definition not a man so no.

Not true. Women, men and enbies get periods.

Periods not inducing manly feelings is pretty common overall and not limited to trans people. Women rather wanting to be men is not that unusual either.

Trans men are men, and they have male gender identities. Of course it's distressing to them when they feel like less of men. But to be clear, everyone's trans experience is different and periods don't do induce these feelings for all trans men. Also, I never wanted to be a man.

Periods are physically a nuisance but it’s not the reason I hate it, my first period was traumatic as it made me aware of having a female reproductive system and I hated knowing that.

So it's wrong of me to hate my period?

It seems you think a trans person’s emotional experience is always entirely different from a the experience of a non-trans person.

Not always though. But a trans persons experience is a trans person's experience. A cis person's experience is a cis person's experience.

Aren’t you doing the same thing then? You complain about GCs talking over female trans people despite you not being a female trans person yourself. So either it’s okay to complain about how other groups treat female trans people despite not being a female trans person (including GC) or it’s not okay for anyone (including you).

I read articles by trans men, subs for trans men, watch video's by trans men about being trans, etc. At least when I listen to trans men's words, I work on myself on being a better ally. When GCs read trans men's words, they instantly call trans men selfish and narcissistic. Just here and here, they complain when celebrities come out as trans. GCs don't have any intention of becoming allies to trans men, yet complain when trans women aren't the perfect allies.

I bet male trans people did a thread celebrating the ban too.

Sure, but the point is GCs act like they are supportive of trans men but actual trans men say they aren't.

You seem to think I would find that surprising. I am not GC because I think female trans people support GC, I don't really care if they support GC or not. I'm GC because I am critical of gender. I am GC because I don't think sex can be changed and it goes against my moral principles to lie about trans people being the opposite sex.

OK, but I believe GCs need to stop complaining about how trans women mistreat trans men. On r/FTM, trans men themselves made numerous posts complaining about gender critical, and there are very few posts complaining about trans women. I might as well do a poll asking r/FTM if they would choose GC or the trans community to be their allies. I will bet all of my life savings most (if not all) will pick the trans community.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even now I identify as a woman based on my gender identity, not my biology.

If you are referring to gender identity, not biology, with the letter combination “woman” then there are many adult human females who aren't women in your usage of that letter combination, including me.

Those men were speaking for themselves as trans men, not as females.

They can’t speak as men as they aren’t men. Their nipples are targeted due to their femaleness, not their transness, and that makes it a female issue, not a trans issue.

GCs always talk about the need for female only spaces, so I don't understand why they don't understand that trans men also need their own spaces.

GC hasn’t lobbied for female trans subreddits getting banned so GC isn’t stopping these female people from having their own spaces. We just don’t pretend they are men so we are not going to pretend their female issues are manly issues.

Women, men and enbies get periods.

You are talking about human females so these are all women or girls.

So it's wrong of me to hate my period?

No.

Not always though. But a trans persons experience is a trans person's experience. A cis person's experience is a cis person's experience.

I guess genderists have unique experiences regarding experiencing gender identities so I’m not going to tell you what it is like for you to have a woman gender identity as I have no clue. I would never claim my experience is the same as male trans people who want to be women as wanting to be a woman is unrelatable to me. Dysphoria isn’t a trans exclusive experience though and I can relate to female people who dislike being female as I am a female person who dislikes being female.

I read articles by trans men, subs for trans men, watch video's by trans men about being trans, etc. At least when I listen to trans men's words, I work on myself on being a better ally.

I have talked to many trans people and listened to them but I have never cared to be an ally to the movement as I consider it non-scientific, sexist and homophobic.

GCs act like they are supportive of trans men

I don't act like I am supportive of validating the gender feelings of female trans people. I support their right to get abortions etc but I think they care more about me not pretending they are men so I’m not under the illusion that my views would be popular among female trans people.

I believe GCs need to stop complaining about how trans women mistreat trans men.

I have never complained about it but I also don’t see why it would be wrong for a person to use their observational skills. Either something is true or it isn’t, and if something is true then it’s true regardless if GC is popular among female trans people or not.

I will bet all of my life savings most (if not all) will pick the trans community.

Of course, and I would make the same bet as you. You talk a lot about GC supposedly being under the impression that female trans people would consider GC their number one ally (lol). I not going to say stupid people don’t exist but I am not a person who believes female trans people see GC as their ally. If you want to rectify people who believe that then you speaking to the wrong person.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Most of us don't define ourselves by our biology.

And yet you have that biology whether you define yourself by it or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you're dead or an infant or aware of every single itty bitty facet of how your biology works. People being delusional or lying to themselves or brainwashed or mentally ill does not change reality in any capacity. Can you define yourself as transracial or a wolf, and then demand the same legal treatment as what you identify as? After all, we shouldn't define anyone by their biology, right?

This was about trans men being allowed to show their nipple, not women. Women can speak about their oppression in different spaces.

When the reasons why we both can't show our female organs are intrinsically tied to us experiencing oppression due to being female and having said female organs and as a result experiencing oppression that female people are saddled with all their lives, then no, I'm not going to pretend these women are some speshul snowflakes with unique problems just because they're sad that they haven't managed to convince society that their breasts are actually giant testicles or something. No, I'm going to call it what it is: misogyny. Women lying to themselves that misogyny isn't misogyny for male approval has always been normal and it doesn't make them special or change the reality of these double standards and why they exist.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And yet you have that biology whether you define yourself by it or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you're dead or an infant or aware of every single itty bitty facet of how your biology works. People being delusional or lying to themselves or brainwashed or mentally ill does not change reality in any capacity. Can you define yourself as transracial or a wolf, and then demand the same legal treatment as what you identify as? After all, we shouldn't define anyone by their biology, right?

Defining yourself by your gender identity is not delusional.

When the reasons why we both can't show our female organs are intrinsically tied to us experiencing oppression due to being female and having said female organs and as a result experiencing oppression that female people are saddled with all their lives, then no, I'm not going to pretend these women are some speshul snowflakes with unique problems just because they're sad that they haven't managed to convince society that their breasts are actually giant testicles or something. No, I'm going to call it what it is: misogyny. Women lying to themselves that misogyny isn't misogyny for male approval has always been normal and it doesn't make them special or change the reality of these double standards and why they exist.

If a man with gynecomastia cannot show his breasts, is it due to being female? I see this situation as no different.

[–]adungitit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Defining yourself by your gender identity is not delusional.

Is defining yourself as a wolf delusional? Is defining yourself as a child when you're an adult delusional? Is defining yourself as black when you're white delusional?

Again, what you think doesn't matter one bit to reality. I don't want to grow up. I want to have a tail. I want to fly. Too bad!

If a man with gynecomastia cannot show his breasts, is it due to being female?

I don't understand. A man with gynecomastia can show his chest, that's the whole point. Women cannot show their breasts because they're women. Even when a man has gynecomastia that makes his chest breast-like, he can still show his chest. Some women lying that their breasts aren't breasts and trying to haggle that they specifically shouldn't have to deal with misogyny because they're special does not for a moment change the fact that they cannot show their breasts because they're women, and breasts are not allowed to be shown in public because of sexist double standards. Some women wanting special treatment where they're free from misogyny due to "not being like those other girls" is ultimately irrelevant to the fact that they're going to experience it, just as any woman is going to experience misogyny whether she insists that she doesn't or not.

[–]comradeconradical 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not all women experience periods or life the same way either, because we are all complex human beings beyond sex and self-proclaimed identity. That goes for females of all ages, ethnicities, abilities, gender identities, medical conditions, mentalities, etc. We are all different in some way yet all human and, on this topic, all female. It's dishonest to say the issue isn't a female one, or that it's not a female issue because it's a self identified transman or a tomboy experiencing it.

Instead of getting angry and gate-keeping breast objectification and oppression, I think it's more constructive to tackle the bigger societal issue anyway and work together, to see multiple sides of the same topic from those the topic effects. Women are not talking OVER transmen, they are trying to talk WITH them in solidarity of shared issues, about oppression that ultimately affects us all. Their separatist mentality of "us transmen vs those interfering cis women" helps no one when talking about shared female issues, issues that have been long repressed in history, that we as a class can now finally talk more openly about.

The problems here are the false dichotomy between transmen and women concerning female oppression, as well as the false equivalence of women and transwomen as 'conversation oppressors', as statistics of males talking over females is a measured, significant, systematic issue.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't go on Ovarit and other GC spaces telling GCs they aren't oppressed by trans women.

You do that here regularly lmao.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

This is a debate sub. I don't post on exclusively GC subs.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No you trawl them looking for posts to bring here and complain about them, whilst ignoring any and all debate.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

socially they are men

Is that why they're not allowed to go topless like other women? Because they are socially seen as men?

A trans person's experience with periods and a cis person's experience with periods are entirely different.

I experience shitting on the toilet differently from another person, I guess that means I deserve a special biological category, then! Deuterostomes, protostomes, adungetitstomes.