QT: How do we determine who is identifying as trans in bad faith under self-identification?

submitted by comradeconradical from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I have a question. I might make it a post later, but I'm just curious. So your saying you shouldn't allow males in female spaces. Makes sense. Assuming you believe that trans women are male and thus men, that would also extend to trans men who are female and thus women. So trans men should have access to female spaces. Assuming transition is still an option for us trans people, doesn't this create the issue of what at least physically is a man in women's bathrooms? Since trans men pass easier than trans women this would give male predators the option to pose as trans men to invade all female spaces that don't check the id beforehand.

Sure you would be able to deal with them after the fact, but the topic is prevention not persecution.

[–]comradeconradical[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If anything, I advocate for third spaces for trans people. I don't think we should compromise the safety of the majority of women and girls for the few. That said, if someone passes entirely and is in good faith, it's generally not as big an issue to use the opposite sex bathroom. But, my question is not about passing, but about the impact of self-id and these actions in bad faith. Maybe if you or any other QT could illuminate the difference we could approach the issues of sex-specific and gender-id-specific spaces more reasonably.

To address your tangentially related question, transmen may pass better than transwomen in general, but most of the transmen I've known have been visibly female in some way or another, even with a full beard and deep voice. Further, transmen do not pose the same threat to women that males do. From a radfem perspective, transmen are female, and thus entitled to female sex-based services and spaces. A beard doesn't make a human male, as there are females with beards either naturally or through external means.

Onto your next point, The males I've heard of using the women's bathroom who don't transition usually call themselves 'butch' women even though they, for all purposes, look like normal men. That being said, I'm sure there could be a bad faith situation where a male pretends to be a transman, but it seems much less likely to be successful than to just claim to be a transwoman. It comes back to my overarching question of determining Good Faith "True" Trans from Bad Faith "Fake" Trans, which is difficult to determine with self-id.

So by all means make a post about this, I've seen this debate before but it's always good to hear more perspectives. Still, I'd really love if you could answer any part of my original question on this thread.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hope you start a thread about this. It's a topic that needs discussion and some workable solutions.

doesn't this create the issue of what at least physically is a man in women's bathrooms?

Certainly, it would create situations where persons who might physically appear to be men in women's loos and other spaces. Which definitely could cause distress, discomfort and fear in some/many girls and women - meaning the ones who don't "identify as" trans (and/or who don't "identify as" anything else, either, coz they don't ascribe to the theory that everyone has a "gender identity" and aren't consumed by, or don't care at all, about "identity" the way others nowadays might and do).

Since trans men pass easier than trans women this would give male predators the option to pose as trans men to invade all female spaces that don't check the id beforehand.

Yes, this might open the door to males to do this. Which is a problem.

On the other hand, though, I'm not sure the sweeping claim that "trans men pass easier than trans women" across the board actually is true, especially nowadays when so many males are having facial feminization surgeries, lots of body sculpting and some males who began identifying as trans in childhood have been put on puberty blockers.

Also, when seen and heard at close range in real life, many female people who identify as boys/men - and who've altered their appearance by taking T, binding their breasts or having had them removed, growing beards, etc - don't actually "pass" as well as they think - or as other trans people and their allies keep claiming and telling them. Things like their height, body shape, voice and the small size and delicacy of their hands and feet often give them away - particularly in the eyes of other females, coz females tend to be better at quickly and accurately sussing out other people's actual sex than males are, and women tend to improve their ability to accurately gauge sex the older we get and the more "lived experience" we accumulate.

Moreover, whereas early use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones are helping males like Jazz Jennings "pass" better, the opposite is turning out to be true for females. Girls who take puberty blockers due to their trans identities end up shorter in height than they otherwise would have been, which in many cases will just make their sex more "clockable" rather than less.

A question that needs to be addressed is: do or should male people have a right to exclude female people from loos, locker rooms and other spaces where they attend to to their bodily functions and might haver their penises exposed or their entire bodies naked?

Also, generally speaking, the issues of trans-identified people of the two sexes using spaces meant for the opposite sex aren't entirely analogous. Due to males' larger and stronger bodies, male patterns of criminality, males' prurient interests in looking at girls' and women's bodies especially when naked or partly naked, and male patterns of sexually aggressive, inappropriate and intimidating behavior towards females - leering, hitting on, perving, menacing, stalking, making lewd comments and so on - males in female spaces pose threats to the safety, dignity, privacy and mental wellbeing of females that females in male spaces don't pose towards males.

Also, there's the new problem of placing spy cams in loos, hotel rooms, change rooms and so on. AFAIK, this is something only males do, and they usually do it to film female people. Of course, there are probably pedophiles who place spy cams in loos and such in hopes of getting footage of both little boys and little girls, or of either. But I've not heard of any women who've been using today's technology to surreptitiously film boys, men or children in toilets, change rooms, hotels rooms, locker rooms etc for their private viewing or to post online for all the world to see.

My understanding is that most female people who ID as trans are aware of that males pose far more threats, and far graver threats, to females than females do to males . Which is why when they are imprisoned, most trans-identified females don't ask or push to be placed in male correctional facilities - and authorities won't even consider doing so.

Another issue is: when females who identify as trans use spaces meant for males, what exactly is their motivation? Do they feel a pressing need to be in male spaces in order to get "validation" for their identities the way males who identify as women do when it comes to using female spaces? Or are they primarily acting out of their own internalized misogyny that makes them feel disgust towards female bodies and bodily functions, and therefore they wish not to be seen as female nor to be associated with/in close proximity to people of their own sex? Or are other factors/motives involved?

We know that males who identify as the opposite sex tend to see female people as second-class support humans who have a moral duty to put the needs and wishes of trans-identified males before their own needs for safety, privacy, dignity and peace of mind. But do female people who ID as men tend to see male people in similar dehumanizing and exploitative ways? Or do female people who ID as trans, having been brought up and socialized as female people, tend to view male people and male spaces with less entitlement and aggression - and less desire to dominate, conquer and colonize them and their spaces?

Lots of males who identify as the opposite sex seem hellbent on erasing and replacing female people. But the impression I get is that females who identify as the opposite sex don't have the same agenda towards male people. Females who ID as trans (or as non-binary and all the rest) seem to be trying to escape being female and all the objectification, limitations, disadvantages and abuse that unfortunately females face in a world dominated by misogynistic, porn-soaked, often abusive men. But they don't seem intent on driving male people underground or off the face of the earth, and they don't seem preoccupied with not allowing male people to talk about their male bodies or issues that affect only males.