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[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hello? If transition pulls only the opposite-sex attracted ones into realms of bisexuality, then counting bisexual trans-womxyn as gynaephiles is justified. How many more times does this need to be explained to you?

What data is that based on? It appears to just be restating a stereotype and stating it like it appears to be true. How is that dispositive?

Your argument is: it's just made up? The authors quoted are academics who write exclusively on the topic of sexuality. Your incredulity is unjustified. Spare me your convenient pedantry.

You really want to cite an opinion piece that calls gay men not real men?

Conveniently nitpicky.

I don’t claim expertise of the fafafine but as I understand it, it’s a purely social role that involves no actual transformation. It’s essentially just permanent cross dressing and adapting the traditional feminine role in a highly gendered society, without physical transition.

That's true of all trans people. In most of the world & throughout history medical transition wasn't a thing, obviously.

First that article is 18 years old and likely based on older surveys

Which would make it a lot more accurate, as the closer to the present day the info is the more Western influences on the data you'd have to contend with. Too much Western influence defeats the purpose of collecting data from other cultures.

a move from 71 percent of kathoey feeling gay in early onset to 91 percent after transition which still represents a change

How the fuck did you get that from: "by age 10, 71% felt different to other males"? Learn how to read, mate. Later it says: "by age 10 only 7% had experienced any sexual feelings at all" – Wow, from 7% in childhood to close to 100% in adulthood? That's a massive cHaNGe. Think of the implications!

And 30 percent of them see this as gay attraction suggesting they wouldn’t be considered trans by many people]

Only by insular people. Other cultures exist. It's not a far-fetched notion that men are men, even if they adopt cross-gender roles.

There could also be a cultural element given that Thailand as I understand it has a pretty strong anti gay history

It's entirely possible that if homophobia didn't exist anywhere neither would transgenderism.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

You really want to cite an opinion piece that calls gay men not real men? Conveniently nitpicky.

I would argue it’s okay to nitpick someone’s obvious homophobia when discussing sexuality.

I don’t claim expertise of the fafafine but as I understand it, it’s a purely social role that involves no actual transformation. It’s essentially just permanent cross dressing and adapting the traditional feminine role in a highly gendered society, without physical transition. That's true of all trans people. In most of the world & throughout history medical transition wasn't a thing, obviously.

That isn’t true of all trans people. Almost all trans people in the west at least take hormones. The Kathoey either hormonal or surgically get breasts. The physical is the more important part. That’s why you can have someone who calls themself a butch trans women because they physically transitioned but don’t embrace a feminine role or aesthetic.

Which would make it a lot more accurate, as the closer to the present day the info is the more Western influences on the data you'd have to contend with. Too much Western influence defeats the purpose of collecting data from other cultures

That’s ridiculous. Newer data will reflect current society. Want to argue about gender roles in Ancient Greece next? We are living today so life today is what we should be addressing.

And 30 percent of them see this as gay attraction suggesting they wouldn’t be considered trans by many people] Only by insular people. Other cultures exist. It's not a far-fetched notion that men are men, even if they adopt cross-gender roles.

If you think you are a man and dress like a woman you are a drag queen or a cross dresser. Trans women consider themself women.

There could also be a cultural element given that Thailand as I understand it has a pretty strong anti gay history It's entirely possible that if homophobia didn't exist anywhere neither would transgenderism.

In the same sense that if homophobia didn’t exist we would be living on Mars. Wild and baseless speculation which ignores the evidence of brains studies and subjective experiences of trans people.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

every time you refer to homosexuals with cross-gender roles as "women" you're surely doing very much the same as calling them "not real men", hypocrite.

so trans people never existed before the 20th century & don't exist in most countries of the world even today just because boob implants haven't existed until then? Is being trans a medical condition except you acquire by trying to treat it in some sort of mad pathologising paradox?

When are you going to admit I was right & you were wrong about kathoeys' sexual orientation btw?

If there is no evidence of something ever existing until 10 years ago, it's pretty safe to assume that it's not natural, like the recent trend of non-binary teenage girls, for instance. Cultural imperialism is a thing FYI. Over time cultures become more homogeneous by assimilating to the dominant culture. Skin-whitening beauty products in various cultures are a direct result of colonialism & imperialism, & if ever there is a shift in the kathoey's sexual orientation distribution to include a bunch of "transbians" then it'd be just as safe to assume it was entirely due to Western influence. Only evolutionary biologists use logic flawed by presentism. Are you an evolutionary biologist?

Brain studies? What brain studies? The ones that prove gay men are women on account of not all gay brains having one tiny similarity in common with not all female brains? Cherry picking. Brain studies more often than not prove the exact opposite of what you're looking for, unless you're so selective you end up cherry-picking the bits you like & discarding the majority you don't like. You said yourself that Thailand has a homophobic history, in addition to that we know that it has one of the highest trans populations & they are practically all same-sex attracted – it's not far-fetched at all to make the case that transgenderism is an outgrowth of systemic homophobia. It doesn't take a genius to put two & two together, just the most rudimentary critical thinking skills.

You're really grasping at straws at this point. It's quite pathetic really. All the evidence points to transbians only existing in the West, produce evidence to the contrary Transgendered males are homosexuals assimilating to a homophobic culture, while transbianism is a paraphilia & nb is the product of a teen sub-culture, it's clear as day. What's the alternative? "Trapped in the wrong body", feel like this, live like that? Give me a break.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

every time you refer to homosexuals with cross-gender roles as "women" you're surely doing very much the same as calling them "not real men", hypocrite.

That’s not what I’m doing. I separated the fafafine and the Kathoey that though of themselves as men from the discussion of women expressly.

so trans people never existed before the 20th century & don't exist in most countries of the world even today just because boob implants haven't existed until then?

It may shock you to learn that steps like removing testes could be taken before the 1930’s.

Is being trans a medical condition except you acquire by trying to treat it in some sort of mad pathologising paradox?

Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. When you treat it you become trans. They aren’t identical terms.

And you are using transbian wrong. The trans women who would say transbian instead of lesbian are looking for other trans women not natal women.

Brain studies? What brain studies?

The multiple studies that have demonstrated that trans women have particular structures separate from tendencies of men or natal women suggesting a biological basis for dysphoria. I don’t have them handy but I know there were at least 2.

You said yourself that Thailand has a homophobic history, in addition to that we know that it has one of the highest trans populations & they are practically all same-sex attracted – it's not far-fetched at all to make the case that transgenderism is an outgrowth of systemic homophobia. It doesn't take a genius to put two & two together, just the most rudimentary critical thinking skills.

Correlation doesn’t prove causation. You can posit the theory but there’s no data to show that it would follow that there would be no trans people without homophobia. In fact it’s at minimum put in doubt with the rising number of out trans people in America as gay rights are as advanced as they have ever been. Your theory would require the opposite.

All the evidence points to transbians only existing in the West,

Literally no evidence points to this. Trans people exist all over the world. Some of them are gay. Your level of plain denial of the simple fact of people existing is no less than stunning.

Transgendered males are homosexuals assimilating to a homophobic culture, while transbianism is a paraphilia & nb is the product of a teen sub-culture, it's clear as day. What's the alternative? "Trapped in the wrong body", feel like this, live like that? Give me a break.

It’s gender dysphoria. What’s so hard to grasp about that. You think your male body is disgusting so you did it. Bingo. It doesn’t require or rule out same sex attraction.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You still believe that a desire to be the opposite sex is a mental disorder? In the past we used to pathologise homosexuality, nowadays gender clinics are on the increase, we are clearly going in the wrong direction on that front. On the other hand, if you remember my previous post on here, international bodies are beginning to de-pathologise "gender incongruence", as they combat the Westerncentric, pathologising view that you embrace.

No, I'm not using transbian wrong. Google it.

Regarding brain structures "correlation does not prove causation". A brain structure can be as much an effect as a cause. Even you know that.

the rising number of out trans people

The economy crashed in 2008 & has yet to recover, in fact, it has taken a few more blows recently by the virus & lockdowns. Cultures become more traditionalist in the wake of an economic crash, this has been true since the agricultural revolution some 12 thousand years ago. The rise of the far-right & the coinciding of the trans trend are not unrelated. They are both symptoms of an economic disease – or so it could be argued, without contradiction. If you've noticed it's mostly the illegitimate "trans" people who are the loudest, most visible, most dogmatic & most active within the movement. They are overcompensating, which seems to be the default for trans people, generally. Reminds me of right-wing, closeted homosexual homophobes.

Literally no evidence points to this. Trans people exist all over the world. Some of them are gay. Your level of plain denial of the simple fact of people existing is no less than stunning.

Over the course of this discussion I have provided citations (granted mostly secondary, but even some primary ones) on the exclusively androphilic sexual orientations of the hijra, kathoey, muxe, fa’afafine, xanith, travesti & the maknyahs. I'm running out of transgendered males in the world to cover. You're clearly the one in denial. When are you finally going to produce any evidence to the contrary???

"Gender dysphoria" doesn't exist outside the West though, that's the problem. That's why the INTERNATIONAL Classification of Diseases had to replace it with 'gender incongruence', which isn't entirely accurate either, but it's a step in the right direction, as it's less Westerncentric & less pathologising.