Both: Do "transbians" exist outside the West?

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

The majority of trans women in the west are also androphiles it’s about 1/3 gay 1/3 straight 1/3 bi/pan.

Also attraction isn’t dependent on identity. You can be any sexuality and still trans.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I should have posted the source I was working from:

"A 2015 survey of roughly 3000 American trans women showed that at least 60% were attracted to women"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sexuality

There are other sources that confirm what you're saying, roughly (except putting bi & pan together makes that category slightly higher than 1/3), but "transbian" in those examples may not be a majority, but still a plurality. If you consider that a significant portion of trans-womxyn who are attracted to women tend to have their sexual orientation shift into bisexuality after undergoing HRT, one might include those bisexual & pansexual numbers under gynaephiles too (since bisexuality is incredibly rare, typically, especially in the male sex).

Also attraction isn’t dependent on identity. You can be any sexuality and still trans.

People always say that, but it appears to only be true in the West. I did searches using Google & Google Scholar trying to find evidence of gynaephilia & androphilia in other cultures' equivalent of trans-womxyn & all I was able to find was evidence of exclusive androphilia time & time again.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you consider that a significant portion of trans-womxyn who are attracted to women tend to have their sexual orientation shift into bisexuality after undergoing HRT,

Many males who identify as trans claim to have their sexual orientation shift into bisexuality after taking cross-sex hormones (which are not "HRT"), but what they claim is not necessarily true.

Also, where trans individuals do self-report a change in their sexual orientation, it has not been shown that this claimed change in orientation is either real or is a result of taking CSH and androgen blockers, getting surgeries or taking any other medical treatment to "transition." The correlation with hormone treatment seems to be entirely made up in the heads of these persons and researchers have found no evidence of it, just as is the case with the switch in sexual orientation these persons claim has occurred.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192544/

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

That same article listed trans women as 19 percent straight, 20 bi, and 16 pan. That’s already 55 percent even discounting the 12 percent no answers and “queer” respondents. If you use men as a basis ( as I assume you would) that’s still what at least 4 times the rate of cis men being attracted to men?

You are speaking in universal assumptions with no basis. You can’t just assume all the Kathoey for instance are exclusive interested in men. There’s been no data collection to support that assertion.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Article? But the bi & pan ones I would count as gynaephiles, since gynaephiles' sexual orientation can shift to include men when on hormones.

Why assume that a third of Kathoey are all gynaephiles until proven otherwise? We are all aware of androphilic kathoey, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of gynaephilic ones. The few mentions I could find talking about kathoey sexual orientation confirmed that they are androphiles. Why should I still assume that their sexual orientation distribution is the same as trans-womxyn in the USA? Gay men are androphiles too – is that a "universal assumption" too? If there was a different culture that grouped bi & gay men together, maybe the aforementioned could be considered a "universal assumption" to them. There is no better example of making "universal assumptions" than your Westerncentric view on the subject.

Here are some more "universal assumptions":

"With respect to participants in the replication sample, 129 (97%) fa'afafine described their sexual feelings as exclusively androphilic (Kinsey rating = 6), and the remaining 4 (3%) reported most sexual feelings toward males, but occasional fantasies about females"

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9576-5

"Despite this heterogeneity in gender role presentation, fa'afafine are, with very few exceptions, exclusively androphilic"

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-6811.2011.01364.x

"In Western cultural contexts, male androphiles who fit this egalitarian pattern are often referred to as gay men. In contrast, in most non-Western societies, transgendered male androphilia appears to be the cultural norm. Transgendered male androphilia occurs between a male who is markedly gender-atypical and another who is more or less gender-typical for his own sex. Thus, partners adopt different social roles and do not treat each other as social equals. In many non-Western cultures, transgendered androphilic males often occupy ‘alternative’ gender role categories that are distinguished linguistically from the gender-normative categories of ‘man’ and ‘woman’. Some contemporary examples include the xanith of Oman, the hijra of India, the kathoey of Thailand, the travestí of Brazil, the fakafefine of Tonga and the fa'afafine of Samoa (Herdt 1996; Murray 2000)"

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2007.0120#d5261919e1172s

So take it up with Stephen O. Murray & Gilbert Herdt.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Ignoring the bi and pan people by just calling them gynaphalic will obviously distort the data since you are ignoring a substantial portion of it.

You want assume some kathoey are bi or even gay but will assume they are straight with no basis evidentiary basis? You are just assuming your prejudices are correct.

I didn’t say anything about the fafafine, but since there’s data you can actually point to it would be different. But that’s also a very different matter than being a trans woman as I understand it.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

This is what you're ignoring:

"Among 115 Dutch participants, for example, 33% of trans women and 22% of trans men reported experiencing changes in their sexual attractions. This was true of 49% of trans masculine and 64% of trans feminine individuals in a 2015 study of 452 participants from Massachusetts, with the majority of these changes occurring after social transition. In another 2013 study of 507 U.S. trans men who’ve started transitioning (including hormones and/or surgery), 40% reported some shift in sexual attractions. Almost identical results were found in a 2005 study of 232 U.S. trans women who had undergone surgical and hormonal transition, where 43% reported significant shifts in their sexual orientation (of 2+ points along the 7-point Kinsey scale). Most of these changes include shifts from exclusive attraction to one gender pre-transition toward some level of bisexuality post-transition [...] But some people claim almost complete reversal of their sexual orientation. For example, 13% of the trans women in the 2005 study switched from exclusive or primary attraction to women to exclusive or primary attraction to men (there were no such drastic changes among those who were initially attracted to men)"

https://www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition

You want assume some kathoey are bi or even gay but will assume they are straight

I'm not assuming. Apparently you missed it in my previous reply, so here are the highlights again:

"In Western cultural contexts, male androphiles who fit this egalitarian pattern are often referred to as gay men. In contrast, in most non-Western societies, transgendered male androphilia appears to be the cultural norm Transgendered male androphilia occurs between a male who is markedly gender-atypical and another who is more or less gender-typical for his own sex [...] [They] often occupy ‘alternative’ gender role categories that are distinguished linguistically from the gender-normative categories of ‘man’ and ‘woman’. Some contemporary examples include [...] the KATHOEY of Thailand (Herdt 1996; Murray 2000)"

To sum up, homosexuality in most other cultures manifests itself in the homosexual male adopting what we regard as a more feminine gender role & expression, better known as the transgendered male.

Since my previous comment, I found this reference to kathoey sexual orientation:

"While kathoey are for the most part interested only in “real” men, who occasionally have sex with them, gay men might seek either “real” men or other gay men as sexual partners (Doussantousse & Keovongchith; Lyttleton, 2008)"

https://www.academia.edu/11497712/Mobile_Sexualities_Transformations_of_Gender_and_Sexuality_in_Southeast_Asia

followed by this more substantial reference:

Proposition Six from: Thirteen general propositions about TG in Asia:

"the majority develop a sexual preference they see as being consistent with that identity – an exclusive attraction to men, and a preference for the role of insertee [...] This appears to be true in places as far apart as Oman, Myanmar, Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore - and Thailand, where we have found that 91% of our sample reported an exclusive attraction to men [...] The overwhelming preference for male partners is also evident in Teh’s findings for Malaysian maknyahs"

https://www.transgenderasia.org/thirteen_general_statements.htm

I didn’t say anything about the fa'fafine, but since there’s data you can actually point to it would be different. But that’s also a very different matter than being a trans woman as I understand it.

How so?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

You are pulling in a lot of irrelevant thoughts. If trans men tend to change sexuality with transition as well as trans women, what point does that make regarding trans women? Even if it does change, what does that matter when your original point was that there are no lesbian trans women outside of America.

"In Western cultural contexts, male androphiles who fit this egalitarian pattern are often referred to as gay men. In contrast, in most non-Western societies, transgendered male androphilia appears to be the cultural norm Transgendered male androphilia occurs between a male who is markedly gender-atypical and another who is more or less gender-typical for his own sex [...] [They] often occupy ‘alternative’ gender role categories that are distinguished linguistically from the gender-normative categories of ‘man’ and ‘woman’. Some contemporary examples include [...] the kathoey of Thailand (Herdt 1996; Murray 2000)

What data is that based on? It appears to just be restating a stereotype and stating it like it appears to be true. How is that dispositive?

"While kathoey are for the most part interested only in “real” men, who occasionally have sex with them, gay men might seek either “real” men or other gay men as sexual partners (Doussantousse & Keovongchith; Lyttleton, 2008)"

You really want to cite an opinion piece that calls gay men not real men?

I don’t claim expertise of the fafafine but as I understand it, it’s a purely social role that involves no actual transformation. It’s essentially just permanent cross dressing and adapting the traditional feminine role in a highly gendered society, without physical transition.

"the majority develop a sexual preference they see as being consistent with that identity – an exclusive attraction to men, and a preference for the role of insertee [...] This appears to be true in places as far apart as Oman, Myanmar, Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore - and Thailand, where we have found that 91% of our sample reported an exclusive attraction to men [...] The overwhelming preference for male partners is also evident in Teh’s findings for Malaysian maknyahs"

First that article is 18 years old and likely based on older surveys. I suspect you would see a much wider spread today. Even then that article involves a move from 71 percent of kathoey feeling gay in early onset to 91 percent after transition which still represents a change. And 30 percent of them see this as gay attraction suggesting they wouldn’t be considered trans by many people (since they seem to think of themselves as men). There could also be a cultural element given that Thailand as I understand it has a pretty strong anti gay history.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hello? If transition pulls only the opposite-sex attracted ones into realms of bisexuality, then counting bisexual trans-womxyn as gynaephiles is justified. How many more times does this need to be explained to you?

What data is that based on? It appears to just be restating a stereotype and stating it like it appears to be true. How is that dispositive?

Your argument is: it's just made up? The authors quoted are academics who write exclusively on the topic of sexuality. Your incredulity is unjustified. Spare me your convenient pedantry.

You really want to cite an opinion piece that calls gay men not real men?

Conveniently nitpicky.

I don’t claim expertise of the fafafine but as I understand it, it’s a purely social role that involves no actual transformation. It’s essentially just permanent cross dressing and adapting the traditional feminine role in a highly gendered society, without physical transition.

That's true of all trans people. In most of the world & throughout history medical transition wasn't a thing, obviously.

First that article is 18 years old and likely based on older surveys

Which would make it a lot more accurate, as the closer to the present day the info is the more Western influences on the data you'd have to contend with. Too much Western influence defeats the purpose of collecting data from other cultures.

a move from 71 percent of kathoey feeling gay in early onset to 91 percent after transition which still represents a change

How the fuck did you get that from: "by age 10, 71% felt different to other males"? Learn how to read, mate. Later it says: "by age 10 only 7% had experienced any sexual feelings at all" – Wow, from 7% in childhood to close to 100% in adulthood? That's a massive cHaNGe. Think of the implications!

And 30 percent of them see this as gay attraction suggesting they wouldn’t be considered trans by many people]

Only by insular people. Other cultures exist. It's not a far-fetched notion that men are men, even if they adopt cross-gender roles.

There could also be a cultural element given that Thailand as I understand it has a pretty strong anti gay history

It's entirely possible that if homophobia didn't exist anywhere neither would transgenderism.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

You really want to cite an opinion piece that calls gay men not real men? Conveniently nitpicky.

I would argue it’s okay to nitpick someone’s obvious homophobia when discussing sexuality.

I don’t claim expertise of the fafafine but as I understand it, it’s a purely social role that involves no actual transformation. It’s essentially just permanent cross dressing and adapting the traditional feminine role in a highly gendered society, without physical transition. That's true of all trans people. In most of the world & throughout history medical transition wasn't a thing, obviously.

That isn’t true of all trans people. Almost all trans people in the west at least take hormones. The Kathoey either hormonal or surgically get breasts. The physical is the more important part. That’s why you can have someone who calls themself a butch trans women because they physically transitioned but don’t embrace a feminine role or aesthetic.

Which would make it a lot more accurate, as the closer to the present day the info is the more Western influences on the data you'd have to contend with. Too much Western influence defeats the purpose of collecting data from other cultures

That’s ridiculous. Newer data will reflect current society. Want to argue about gender roles in Ancient Greece next? We are living today so life today is what we should be addressing.

And 30 percent of them see this as gay attraction suggesting they wouldn’t be considered trans by many people] Only by insular people. Other cultures exist. It's not a far-fetched notion that men are men, even if they adopt cross-gender roles.

If you think you are a man and dress like a woman you are a drag queen or a cross dresser. Trans women consider themself women.

There could also be a cultural element given that Thailand as I understand it has a pretty strong anti gay history It's entirely possible that if homophobia didn't exist anywhere neither would transgenderism.

In the same sense that if homophobia didn’t exist we would be living on Mars. Wild and baseless speculation which ignores the evidence of brains studies and subjective experiences of trans people.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

every time you refer to homosexuals with cross-gender roles as "women" you're surely doing very much the same as calling them "not real men", hypocrite.

so trans people never existed before the 20th century & don't exist in most countries of the world even today just because boob implants haven't existed until then? Is being trans a medical condition except you acquire by trying to treat it in some sort of mad pathologising paradox?

When are you going to admit I was right & you were wrong about kathoeys' sexual orientation btw?

If there is no evidence of something ever existing until 10 years ago, it's pretty safe to assume that it's not natural, like the recent trend of non-binary teenage girls, for instance. Cultural imperialism is a thing FYI. Over time cultures become more homogeneous by assimilating to the dominant culture. Skin-whitening beauty products in various cultures are a direct result of colonialism & imperialism, & if ever there is a shift in the kathoey's sexual orientation distribution to include a bunch of "transbians" then it'd be just as safe to assume it was entirely due to Western influence. Only evolutionary biologists use logic flawed by presentism. Are you an evolutionary biologist?

Brain studies? What brain studies? The ones that prove gay men are women on account of not all gay brains having one tiny similarity in common with not all female brains? Cherry picking. Brain studies more often than not prove the exact opposite of what you're looking for, unless you're so selective you end up cherry-picking the bits you like & discarding the majority you don't like. You said yourself that Thailand has a homophobic history, in addition to that we know that it has one of the highest trans populations & they are practically all same-sex attracted – it's not far-fetched at all to make the case that transgenderism is an outgrowth of systemic homophobia. It doesn't take a genius to put two & two together, just the most rudimentary critical thinking skills.

You're really grasping at straws at this point. It's quite pathetic really. All the evidence points to transbians only existing in the West, produce evidence to the contrary Transgendered males are homosexuals assimilating to a homophobic culture, while transbianism is a paraphilia & nb is the product of a teen sub-culture, it's clear as day. What's the alternative? "Trapped in the wrong body", feel like this, live like that? Give me a break.