QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Arguing For a group to be stripped of the rights they have and denied agency in their own identities is wrong. Yes.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I am not arguing for the stripping of anyone’s rights though. I am arguing that I am not morally, legally, or in any other way obliged to force myself to see people a way I do not. IE, seeing males as women.

I am not obliged to view males the way you do and am not stripping anyone’s rights away by not doing so.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

That’s ignoring the implications. If trans women are simply men they would then have no protections and no facilities they can actually use. The implications of your stance is us having no rights.

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

"Rights". Men have got rights, gay men too. What additional "rights" do the transgendered ones require? The right to endlessly seesaw between erasing the female sex & appropriating it? Seeing trans-womxyn as men doesn't indirectly strip them of any rights, seeing them as women strips away at women's rights. Calling trans-womxyn women rids both women & trans-womxyn of definitions, making the whole thing redundant. It'd end up with us just going back to distinguishing between the sexes again anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

What additional "rights" do the transgendered ones require?

Protection from discrimination in employment, housing, education, access to business and common carriers, access to essential services, and protections from discrimination in health care. In America on a national level we have exactly one of those.

Seeing trans-womxyn as men doesn't indirectly strip them of any rights

Yes. It does. Because of the way the few rights we’ve cobbled together have arisen in the courts.

seeing them as women strips away at women's rights.

No. It doesn’t. Women’s legal rights are entirely unchanged.

Calling trans-womxyn women rids both women & trans-womxyn of definitions

This is still offensive and childish. Stop trying to invent your own slur.

It'd end up with us just going back to distinguishing between the sexes again anyway.

Sex and gender are different. You want us grouped by sex which is why you would group me with men. I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men for a litany of reasons, the most important of which is that we are so different that to do so creates a myriad of legal problems and leaves us at the mercy of the unquestionable most powerful and dangerous form of humanity, and the one that does harm to us by a huge margin, men.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The best way to protect trans rights is to have them tied to trans status, obviously. If trans-men just get men's rights, then they have no rights that address their specific needs. Why should affirming this ideology come before all else? Oh right, trans-men are female i.e. not your concern.

Sex and gender are different

But the genders are not different, that's the point. Distinguishing between the sexes is justified, distinguishing between genders isn't, since anyone can be anything.

I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men

Women expressly don't want to be grouped with men either, nobody does, why on Earth should over 50% of the population's rights be compromised for 0.2% of the population though, especially when we don't discriminate based on orientation? Purge all the gynaephilic "trans-womxyn" from the movement first – that demographic alone is responsible for all the trans on female violent & sexual crimes. Keeping trans people separate from men is one thing (except trans-men apparently???), but grouping trans-womxyn in with women is completely unjustified. Even grouping gay men with women would make more sense, since none of them are gynaephlles.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The best way to protect trans rights is to have them tied to trans status, obviously.

Yeah. But that hasn’t been done. Legally We aren’t being protected from being trans but generally by court decisions expanding women’s protections to us. Legal codes by and large don’t have express trans protections.

Oh right, trans-men are female i.e. not your concern.

Trans men are men. So I’m not one of them. I support their efforts to get what they need and think they deserve protections that they need as trans people but they’re men.

But the genders are not different, that's the point. Distinguishing between the sexes is justified, distinguishing between genders isn't, since anyone can be anything.

Basing treatment on sex isn’t justified because as I’ve been pointing out it leads to harm. Being forced into men’s spaces harms and kills trans women. Treating us legally as men means we lack necessary protection. Consider things like insurance. A post operative trans women doesn’t need a testicular examination but she does need a mammogram and treating us as men means she would be left uncovered for the service she actually needs.

Women expressly don't want to be grouped with men either, nobody does, why on Earth should over 50% of the population's rights be compromised for 0.2% of the population though, especially when we don't discriminate based on orientation? Purge all the gynaephilic "trans-womxyn" from the movement first – that demographic alone is responsible for all the trans on female violent & sexual crimes.

My point was that you are defining humanity by sex and that’s bad. Why should a minority be exposed to harm because it’s small? And the idea that sexual attraction should determine whether someone has rights is frankly dystopian. A man will hurt a trans woman because she is trans boy because she is gay/bi/straight.

Keeping trans people separate from men is one thing (except trans-men apparently???), but grouping trans-womxyn in with women is completely unjustified.

I don’t claim to speak for trans men. Ask them what they want. In our society grouping trans women with men causes us to have access to no necessary facilities and effectively destroys most of our protections here in the us. Until there is infrastructure and rights in place to need needs, it is justified because far fewer trans women will harm women with that grouping than men would harm trans women the other way. It’s justified because it creates the lowest overall harm.

Separate spaces or safe neural spaces ( like single occupancy bathrooms) would be my preference but that infrastructure doesn’t exist and trans people don’t have the clout to mandate that. So before you argue to remove our rights and access to safe spaces, create safe alternatives. Then the conversation might change.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If trans-men can handle men's spaces, so can trans-womxyn. The latter is not more vulnerable to men than the former.

There are men who have actual breasts, they have to deal with the same problem, except they didn't choose it. Re-categorising them as women would be just as stupid a "solution".

My point was that you are grouping men with a cross-gender self identification with women and that’s bad. "trans panic" = "gay panic", same thing.

far fewer trans-womxyn or gay men or effeminate men or trans-men will harm women with that grouping than men would harm trans-womxyn, gay men, effeminate men, trans-men the other way – there, I corrected it for you. Those protections were made for women, not everyone but women.

There is no excuse for parasitic activism.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

far fewer trans-womxyn or gay men or effeminate men or trans-men will harm women with that grouping than men would harm trans-womxyn, gay men, effeminate men, trans-men the other way – there, I corrected it for you. Those protections were made for women, not everyone but women.

By the crime statistics in the USA and UK, it is few times more likely that stranger transwoman will attack woman than stranger man will attack transwoman. Same with sexual crimes statistics. In the UK only 70 women (out of 3400 women in prison, out of 33 million women) are in prison for sexual offense, in most cases it is prostitution or molesting of youth, almost never it is attack on other women or on grown up men. At the same time there are 60 transwomen in UK prisons (our of 128 transwomen in prison, out of estimated 70 thousand transwomen, our of estimated 500 thousand transgenders (non-binary, transmen, transwomen, agender, and so on) in general) who are in prison for sexual assault, in this case majority are sitting for rape. Only 3 transmen were in prison at the same time, and none for violent crimes. There are 33 million men in UK, and 77 thousand men in prisons, with around 15 thousand being for sexual assault. There were more cases of transwomen in female prisons attacking or raping women in female prisons yearly than women attacking or raping women in female prisons in decade. Nothing strange here, actually, as majority of women in prisons are for non-violent and non-agressive crimes, so it is just mostly casual calm people who not paid fees, while majority of transwomen in prisons are either abusers "fake trans" (men who decided to become trans after getting into the prison, and then again becoming men when get out of jail) or transwomen sitting for violent crimes. Transwomen in general showing same behavioral patterns and crime patterns as men, and transmen as women, at least in such cases.

Safest way will be housing transwomen, gay men and gnc men in one branch of male prison, like it was done in some countries already, and not in female prisons.

Women's safe spaces were created because some men were violent and almost never women. And because of some men - all men were prohibited from entering women's safe spaces. As someone already said: "not all men are rapists, majority are not, but almost all rapists are men". Same should be applied here for transwomen.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex and gender are different. You want us grouped by sex which is why you would group me with men. I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men for a litany of reasons, the most important of which is that we are so different that to do so creates a myriad of legal problems and leaves us at the mercy of the unquestionable most powerful and dangerous form of humanity, and the one that does harm to us by a huge margin, men.

So why not campaign for your own spaces, provisions and protections then instead of horning in on other people's? That's what women, people with physical disabilities and the elderly had to do. How come trans people get to barge in and claim women's hard-won spaces, provisions and sports for their own?

Also, why is it okay for trans identified males to be afraid of other males and want spaces away from them, but it's bigoted and "transphobic" for female people to do the same?

In most cities, there are separate lanes in streets for buses, cars and bicycles, and the sidewalks are for pedestrians and people in prams and wheelchairs. Whenever new forms of transport and recreation come along - skateboards, roller blades, Segways, razor scooters, electric scooters, seated motorized mobility scooters for disabled people (all of which have arrived on the scene within my own lifetime) - municipalities and communities have to get together and decide where the new devices belong.

But a majority of trans people today don't want to be held to the same rules and community decision-making processes as everyone else - they want to be able to go wherever they want whenever they want simply because they demand and insist upon it. The position of many trans people is essentially that if they want to drive a bus or car on the sidewalk or in the bike lane, that's their right. Who cares how many people they mow down and how many rights belonging to others they trample and remove in the process?

Trans activists love to tell others to "stay in your lane" but they don't want to have to carve out a lane for themselves, nor stick to their own lane once it's created.