QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

I’m not really sure your response answers what I’m asking but I get what you’re saying. (Eta- nevermind i see you’re responding to a comment, not the post) I feel like with the pronoun thing- it goes against my beliefs. It’s that simple. Yes it’s easy to say “she.” It’s not easy to say it knowing it reinforces an ideology that you find harmful and offensive. As much as it would bother a TW to be called “he”, it bothers me to call a TW “she.” As far is it being in the student Bill of rights- that’s exactly the type of thing I’m talking about- why and how is it fair to force some students to speak against their own beliefs in favor of another student’s beliefs? That’s the question I’m asking with my post.

As far as not taking someone seriously for misgendering- that’s... I just feel like if I can listen to and engage with someone I consider a man talk about themself as a if they are a woman it’s just interesting to hear that some people on the other side can’t be bothered to discuss something that concerns both of us because I won’t capitulate to their views. Riley Dennis is a misogynist who speaks in incel- even if that’s not applicable to all TW, it damn sure applies to Dennis- the fact that you’ll listen to Dennis pressure others about sexuality but not someone who speaks against that is a red flag imo. To automatically dismiss someone’s arguments over pronouns seems like finding an excuse to run away from the argument. That’s just how I see it and I’m bad at wording things more kindly I apologize.

You consider it rude to refuse to use someone’s preferred pronouns- I think it’s even worse to force someone to speak in a way that conflicts with their beliefs for the sake of someone else’s beliefs. Like- infinitely worse.

I don’t think anyone has the power to compel someone to think a certain way- but I do think tras have a way of making allies feel guilty for their own sexuality and bodies, and I think they often push a narrative that tells whoever listens that if they don’t accept the tra stance on sexuality, sex, and what makes someone a woman or a man (all areas they seem to still be working out as every week something else is transphobic and their usage of sex and gender changes as they need it to imo)- they’re a bigot. Tras have a tendency to tell the rest of us that we need to think how and what they think, and if we don’t, we get threatened, dismissed, labeled, and if applicable “canceled”. People lose jobs, get social media accounts suspended, etc all for thinking something tras don’t want us to think, and expressing it. That’s part of my question- does your school’s student bill of rights dictate that any and all ideological practices any student may hold be observed and practiced by all students, or is it just the preferred pronouns of trans students?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (39 children)

To us the trans movement is not an ideology, it's a fact of life. If you identify as a man, you're a man. If you identify as a woman, you're a woman. By the way, the pronoun rule applies to staff, not students and I have no issue with it. Though even in high school I used she for a trans girl.

Riley is an incel. She made a video about how dating preferences are discriminatory. It wasn't about just refusing to date trans people. It was also about refusing to date people who are black, fat or disabled. That is wrong. You can refuse to date anyone for any reason. Though the video Magdalen was responding to was about "TERFs".

We can't control who we are attracted to and we can refuse to date or sleep with whoever we want. I myself have rejected some cis men because they were ugly and I just wasn't attracted to them, even though they found me hot. That's just part of live. I think most TRAs agree with this. Riley apparently doesn't.

I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted. but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree, the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant. Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Numbering is easier for me lol

  1. I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population. That’s why I asked my questions on this post. If it’s fact for an individual but not a universal fact, how can someone call it fact and demand it of others? Particularly when they can’t prove it to be true? I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called. I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

  2. I think Riley Dennis is an asshole. Makes me uncomfortable. Just venting lol

  3. I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit. If it’s not a view held by most, it shouldn’t be a view we hear so frequently, with no real contradiction. I have a hard time believing that these topics are limited to a small portion of the community, simply because the majority isn’t doing much to quell that narrative.

  4. “I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted.”

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology. To call it bigotry is so incredibly unfair and imo shortsighted.

“but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree,”

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

“the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant.”

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats. Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc. This happened recently can’t remember her name, but she made and sold “adult human female” t shirts and tras got her shit down. Stuff like that shouldn’t happen. Tras should just not buy the shirts and I’d even understand talking about it, but no actions towards closing her shop should’ve happened. Etsy is not an lgbt site. It should have remained neutral. Agree to disagree can totally be the stance- but actively trying to shut down/cancel people or businesses is not agreeing to disagree. Forcing your preferred language isn’t either. (Not saying you’re doing this, just in general).

“Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules”

A few things about this-

•as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

•trans people should allow people to have those spaces without invading them. Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs, reported them all of that stuff- they could have and imo should have- left us alone like we left their spaces alone. Saying that males are men and females are women has never really been proven to be hate speech. As I said above, it’s much more akin to a simple difference of beliefs about sex and biology. Even if TWAW, they’d make up less than 1% of women, most women would still be female- imo, it’s wrong of TW to shut down women’s spaces (same for TM and male spaces, or just any space where trans topics may not be discussed as trans people wish) just because those women (or men, or people) disagree with them. Blocking or not viewing subs that you don’t like is incredibly easy. Tras don’t seem to want to live and let live or agree to disagree- it feels like the goal is total dominance of discussion and absolute capitulation. And all over a “fact of life” that they can’t prove and can’t even agree upon amongst themselves.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population.

Most of society has accepted trans women are women and trans men are men. Otherwise GC wouldn't complain about being cancelled or silenced and most platforms wouldn't ban GC views.

I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called.

That's what most people do. Generally, I correct people, call them a TERF and I don't take whatever they have to say seriously. But I still can't force you to use someone's preferred pronouns.

I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

Than find another job. You are welcome not to work in the public schools.

I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit.

That's like saying Muslims are obligated to speak out against terrorism.

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology.

Most of us think that is bigotry. Most of us don’t define ourselves by our biology. While I was assigned female at birth, when I say I'm female I'm referring to my gender identity.

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats.

Who is banning her books? This is the US, and we have free speech.

Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc.

You're always welcome to find another platform to sell your stuff. You are also welcome to boycott Etsy if you don’t agree with this.

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

You're always welcome to create your own spaces. You can open up gender critical gyms and keep people assigned male at birth out of women’s locker rooms. You can open up GC schools. Just mainstream society is OK with gender neutral bathrooms and you're welcome not to use mainstream facilities.

as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

Reddit is neutral. Them banning all the gender critical subs doesn't mean they aren't neutral.

Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs,

GC people also troll trans subs. Here is one example.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/ftm/comments/ggbus3/sex_party_dysphoria_nsfw/

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

  1. I think more people are willing to share spaces with someone they think is at risk and just go ahead and use preferred pronouns rather than risk someone going home and harming themselves because you correctly identify their sex than that actually believe that TWAW... most people don’t care or aren’t informed enough to truly care. People hear the misrepresented statistics and see the sob stories and have enough sympathy that they go along because they don’t fully see the implications. But studies show that approval rates are dropping yearly and most people don’t really fully include them as their preferred “gender”- example one being the whole sex thing we just got done talking about.

  2. Sounds like you’re saying you pressure for compelled speech then resort to insult when you don’t get it...

  3. So only people who capitulate to your ideology get to work in public schools. That’s precisely what my post is questioning. How do you make that call for the entire school when it’s not even applicable to almost 100% of its students? You disregard the feelings and beliefs of everyone who doesn’t see things your way? So potentially students, staff, and parents may feel uncomfortable or unsafe (more so students) so that maybe one kid will have validation? Seems aggressive and oppressive but I’ll move on

  4. No it’s not at all related to Muslims clarifying that they aren’t terrorists. Not all terrorists are Muslim and certainly you know Muslim does not equal terrorist. Anyone who isn’t a racist understands this. The thing is, go on any social media, watch the YouTube videos- many many tras on those outlets seem to be pushing people to sleep with or at least lie and say they are open to sleeping with trans people. In your example, Muslims (or people racists assume to be Muslim) are being associated with a racist stereotype- but trans people and their allies are actually calling us bigots for not wanting to fuck them. A lot of them are. Your example doesn’t really work when- unlike with Muslims being terrorists- there’s ample evidence of trans people and allies pushing this stuff on others. As well as sending death and rape threats.

  5. You think it’s bigotry but nobody can ever explain why it’s bigotry? Just because you say so? Just because it’s not what you want to hear?

  6. You weren’t assigned female, you were observed to be female.

  7. There’s a bookshop near where I live that did attempt to ban her books. I actually think they didn’t because the books were selling more lol

  8. I mean I guess you can say rape and death threats are free speech. But if and when they get sent to trans people I bet you’re not so blasé about it. It being free speech to threaten harm to a woman for not fully agreeing with you is not a great justification for it but go off I guess

  9. The point is still- why does an ideology that falters under scrutiny get to dictate what’s acceptable to sell on Etsy? Why when women say that they find the things TW say about womanhood misogynistic, we get told to shut up- but a male can say whatever he wants about his understanding of womanhood and he gets applauded? Her shop was put back up and it actually brought her more attention and more sales so I guess it’s all good but still

  10. Lmfao we did create our own spaces. They got invaded by males. And if mainstream society was as comfortable as you claim, there’d be no sexual pressure, no stealthing, no claims that “cis” people don’t want to date trans people, no issues over female sports, and certainly TW wouldn’t claim to be afraid to pee in the men’s room. I think you’re arguing from an idea that outside of the internet, the majority is supportive of trans people. And I don’t think it’s true in the ways you believe it to be.

  11. Banning gc subs and female specific subs is not neutral at all. Rape subs, incel subs, violent subs are still up- but women saying women are not male? Even a sub where trans people willingly participated? Gone. That is not neutral.

  12. I feel confident that there are more trans people or allies trolling us than the reverse- but my point is 1) you said create our own spaces, we did. And trans people came and trolled and harassed. Even after we got kicked off of Reddit. They followed us to troll on a whole different platform. 2) if both sides are guilty of the same shit, then QT and GC subs should either both be gone or both still exist. Everything qt can accuse gc of can be said about them.

I just think everything you’re saying is coming from your ideology which I expected, but is also the whole reason I made this post, to understand why your ideology is allowed to be forced. You just say to us it’s fact. That doesn’t really answer (though I appreciate you engaging). you don’t have proof of your claims, there’s much discrediting your claims, but you call it fact and use that to justify silencing people who don’t accept beliefs as gospel. It’s an alarming phenomenon, and one I don’t think is sustainable.

My whole point was to figure out why trans ideology is allowed to be pushed, and I still don’t really feel I have an answer. Now I just feel more worried for females in general

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

  1. I asked people on the internet if all bathrooms should be gender neutral. Most said yes.

  2. You still have the right not to use someone's pronouns. No one can force you. I have the right to call you a TERF and dismiss your opinions.

  3. You're welcome to work in a private school or another school district. The point is, sometimes your work may require you to go against your beliefs. For instance a catholic teacher who refuses to teach evolution.

  4. Most QTs believe you can refuse to date anyone for any reason.

  5. Yes our side considers the other side transphobic bigots. We have the right to our opinions, GCs have the right to theirs.

  6. I was assigned female based on observation.

  7. There are plenty of other bookshops you can shop.

  8. Threats are not OK.

  9. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like the rules, you can sell your stuff elsewhere. You can boycott Etsy if you want.

  10. If you create gender critical only spaces, no one will invade them as they will have a reputation for being transphobic and bigoted.

  11. To us GC speech is hate speech. So we see this as banning hate speech.

  12. I read Ovarit and have to see QTs troll Ovarit. I do remember QTs trolling r/gendercritical though.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hahahahaha what?! You asked some people on the internet, therefore the majority of people alive agree with you? You cannot tell me you think this is a sensible conclusion or even close to respectable data.

Honestly at this stage, dismiss away. You are not an expert, nor an influential individual, and you are clearly incapable of participating in unbiased, actual research of any kind.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

  1. Who did you ask? Also- thinking bathrooms should be gender neutral doesn’t mean they’ve swallowed TRA rhetoric

  2. I’m saying we should have the right to not use forced pronouns without repercussions professionally and without receiving threats. Idgaf if someone wants to dismiss me on a personal level. My point is pronouns should be optional, where it matters. Like people shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for not feeding misogyny. People should not have to choose between speaking against their beliefs ans having a job. A catholic teacher can have a whole career and never have to teach evolution. People who don’t want to lie about sex can’t avoid pronoun enforcement so easily. My whole thing that I keep wanting you to address is- even if you think what you believe is truth and fact, how can you dismiss the fact that others believe differently? A catholic teacher can work in a public school and teach a grade or subject that doesn’t touch evolution. Forcing ideology through pronouns would still be something they’d have to deal with.

  3. I’d rather fight for people to have freedom of speech than tell people who understand basic biology to gaslight themselves daily. People shouldn’t have to hide the fact that they understand sex in humans to protect anyone’s feelings imo

  4. You’re just gonna ignore my point and that’s fine I’m done pushing qt to address what I’m actually saying.

  5. See number 4 lol

  6. Sex isn’t assigned. If anything you were assigned female by your dad’s sperm but everything else is just how you developed. And even your dad didn’t intentionally make you female. Unless you’re intersex and your sex had to be determined? Pretty sure intersex people have asked qt to stop equating being observed the sex you were born with being assigned one but moving on...

  7. Don’t have to because people showed up to support jkr and the store reconsidered. It’s gonna be a small ass world for tras if you just banish everyone who disagrees with you lol

  8. At least you’ll acknowledge that

  9. Again- Etsy let her put the shop back up and it’s thriving. Etsy gave into woke culture and then changed their mind. A lot of sites are allowing gc stuff more and more lately I’ve noticed

  10. They literally did invade GC spaces how are you missing what I’m saying?

  11. To us, banning logic sounds like knowing your ideology is founded on things you can’t prove and so instead of trying you suppress and silence which... historically, the bad side does this...

  12. I’ve seen it but I’m no longer on the site to screen shot it. Point is still that QT could just ignore GC subs and spaces. But even though nobody on gc threatened anyone or harmed anyone, they had to silence the women who disagree with them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

  1. I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

  2. Employers are allowed to fire you for posting racist, sexist and homophobic speech on your social media. Why is transphobia the exception? If this is an issue for you, go speak to your politicians. Then it will be illegal for employers to fire you based on racist, sexist, ableist, anti-Semitic, homophobic and transphobic speech you post on social media.

Also, as a cis woman (not that the cis part matters to us), pronouns are not feeding misogyny.

  1. I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

  2. Sex is assigned.

  3. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want.

  4. To us, we are banning hate speech.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

  1. Lol

  2. The thing is, transphobia pretty much now just means “whatever upsets trans people, even if it’s just the abject truth”. People arent getting fired for calling trans people freaks, abominations, tr**nies, or wishing to kill them, people are getting fired for acknowledging that TW are biologically male or that sex is real and that it’s relevant. That’s bullshit.

3a. Lmao no it’s not it’s absurd to claim it is.

3b. If it’s assigned, how is it assigned? And why? What are the steps taken and the reasoning for those steps? And how does one change a sex that’s been assigned? What’s the criteria for changing it?

/4. And to the rest of the world, your making the internet a safe bubble for you because you can’t ever get the real world to fully behave ans speak how you want. And it doesn’t matter because it’s all gonna blow up in your face. In the long run tras are making things worse for trans people and many trans people agree with this. I hope one day you come to your senses. If you’re a female, you’re supporting your own oppression.

/5. After the victim blaming was considered acceptable, I very well may either take a break or leave altogether. I can’t really be here if what masks said if considered okay by the admins/mods. It was an interesting discussion thanks.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Sorry for the late reply. I had a sore throat.

  1. Transphobia does not mean whatever upsets trans people. People are getting fired for saying trans women are men, trans men are women, calling trans people narcissists, delusional, fetishists, fujoshis, etc.

  2. Most of us recognize that gender is different from biological sex. We just don't believe people should be defined by their biology and biology is irrelevant outside of a medical context.

  3. Sex is assigned on our birth certificates based on observations.

  4. I fully understand I can't get the world to behave how I want.

  5. Please don't tell me I'm supporting my own oppression. You don't even get to decide how I'm opposed as a female. I have multiple marginalized identities. Not only am I female, I am Jewish and learning disabled. In my life, I was discriminated more due to being learning disabled than I was due to being female and Jewish combined. I know oppression. You don't get to tell me I'm supporting my own oppression.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Assigning sex at birth was medical malpractice used only against intersex people, when VSD conditions were poorly studied and doctorst were lazy - and it almost always led to IGM. It happened only with conditions with ambigious genitals, or in 0.05% cases. In the rest of 99.95% of cases -sex is observed months before birth.

Nowadays assigning at birth is no longer practiced anymore, and gladly so.

banning hate speech

Being homosexual is not a hate speech.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where did I say being homosexual is hate speech?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

Maybe you should broaden your perspective and do your "polling" not online but in person at churches, mosques, synagogues, senior centers, nursing homes, NFL and NBA games, workplaces, gyms, swimming pools, rec centers, maternity wards, department store changing rooms, sororities, fraternities and so on.

When you do, be sure to ask fathers, mothers and grandparents of girls how they feel about their small daughters or granddaughters having to use restrooms in the company of grown men and teenage boys with their dicks out, and whether they think their pubescent and teenage daughters should be forced to undress in front of boys and men who'll be eyeing or staring at the girls with lust as they lick and smack their lips and make lewd comments. Be sure to ask some visibly pregnant women if they want to have to disrobe and express breast milk in front of men as well.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.