QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

When I say “respect” I just mean that even if I disagree, I acknowledge that you have the right to believe whatever you believe, and even if I ridicule it, it’s not for me to try to force you to believe otherwise. So in this context, TW have a right to consider themselves women and ask others to use female pronouns etc- but I have a right to decline based on my own beliefs. Yes we can debate and discuss and challenge beliefs- but at the end of the day no matter how wrong we think someone’s ideology is, they have the right to believe in it. The actions they take because of those beliefs and the consequences of those beliefs are a different story, but I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.” Even though that’s literally what tras do. Like we can express our views and point out flaws and issues, but if that doesn’t change someone’s mind then it is what it is and there’s not much we can do but respect that someone thinks differently. I can’t word what I’m trying to say well, sorry. Like an atheist can tell a theist not to say “god bless you” after the atheist sneezes, but an atheist can’t ask a theist not to pray and go to church, or not to say “god bless you” when another person sneezes. And a theist can try to “save” someone, but can’t (in theory- this is a bad example because “history”) force them to convert, if that makes sense.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LoveS, I wasn't disagreeing with either the word "right" or "respect" or the general point. I was quibbling over the part where you said

people should be allowed to believe what they believe and have those beliefs respected

I think we all need to respect other people's right to believe what they believe, as you say, but I draw the line at everyone having and expecting to "have their beliefs respected." I respect my parents' right to believe in Roman Catholicism, but I do not respect many of the beliefs of Roman Catholic doctrine itself - or the beliefs inherent to many other religions, either. I respect the right of other people to believe in gender ideology, but I do not respect that ideology itself. I think it's a bunch of regressive, pernicious made-up malarkey entirely based on sexist stereotypes and misogyny. And I don't think genderists (or anyone else) must "have their beliefs respected."

but I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.”

I never said that we should go around telling people their beliefs are wrong, so they better stop believing them, nor did I imply such a thing, so I'm not clear why you'd say this to me. I wouldn't say such a thing in a million years, in fact, coz telling someone that would be pointless - and rude. Anyone familiar with basic human psychology knows that shaming and scolding people for their beliefs only makes them dig in their heels - and it's disrespectful of them as persons too.

My position is that if you disagree with other people's beliefs and their beliefs bother you to the point where you you want to try to get them to abandon their beliefs, you don't tell them that they and their beliefs are "wrong" - you refute those beliefs with evidence-based arguments presented in a civil tone.

But even so, I'm not big on the idea that any of us can change anyone else's minds. Each of us can only change our own minds - and the first step in doing that is to open our minds.

For the most part, I'm very "live and let live" when it comes to other people's beliefs. I am not bothered by the fact that other people believe all sorts of things that I find nonsensical, and I don't spend time arguing against many beliefs I consider harmful or dangerous. For example, I don't spend a lot of time arguing with Islamists, Mormons, anti-vaxxers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Stalinists and so on about their beliefs. As the saying goes, pick your battles.

However, I do spend time arguing against the beliefs held by gender ideologues and queer theorists - both in general and with persons who hold those beliefs - because I find said beliefs to be harmful to individuals and society, and to be a genuine threat to the women's rights and feminist issues I've spent my whole life devoted to. I don't want to go back to the days of my youth and early adulthood when girls & women didn't have a lot of the rights and freedoms that so many take for granted today.

Still, when I argue about gender ideology on forums like this, it's neither with the aim of getting adherents of the ideology to abandon their beliefs - nor with the idea that this will ever happen. My first principal aim is to hone my own arguments and share some of the info and knowledge I've accumulated over a long lifetime so they can be useful to others already in general agreement with my position. And my second principal aim is to reach those who are sitting on the fence or have just begun critically thinking about these matters. My secondary aim is to be an example, to show that it's possible to present one's arguments with clarity and force, even with fierceness, whilst still remaining civil and never resorting to name-calling.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

In most cases no one can force you to use someone's preferred pronouns. There are exceptions. Where I live the student bill of rights for public says students have the right to be addressed by a pronoun consistent with their gender identity. I have no problem with this. It's not hard to say she. I always use people's preferred pronouns. Though I do consider misgendering rude and I wont take you seriously if you misgender someone. Magdalen Berns did a video responding to a video by Riley Dennis and she kept referring to Riley as he. Because of that I automatically dismissed her arguments. She's entitled to speak her mind, I'm entitled not to take her seriously.

I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.”

Do you think TRAs have the power to compel you to think a certain way?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

I’m not really sure your response answers what I’m asking but I get what you’re saying. (Eta- nevermind i see you’re responding to a comment, not the post) I feel like with the pronoun thing- it goes against my beliefs. It’s that simple. Yes it’s easy to say “she.” It’s not easy to say it knowing it reinforces an ideology that you find harmful and offensive. As much as it would bother a TW to be called “he”, it bothers me to call a TW “she.” As far is it being in the student Bill of rights- that’s exactly the type of thing I’m talking about- why and how is it fair to force some students to speak against their own beliefs in favor of another student’s beliefs? That’s the question I’m asking with my post.

As far as not taking someone seriously for misgendering- that’s... I just feel like if I can listen to and engage with someone I consider a man talk about themself as a if they are a woman it’s just interesting to hear that some people on the other side can’t be bothered to discuss something that concerns both of us because I won’t capitulate to their views. Riley Dennis is a misogynist who speaks in incel- even if that’s not applicable to all TW, it damn sure applies to Dennis- the fact that you’ll listen to Dennis pressure others about sexuality but not someone who speaks against that is a red flag imo. To automatically dismiss someone’s arguments over pronouns seems like finding an excuse to run away from the argument. That’s just how I see it and I’m bad at wording things more kindly I apologize.

You consider it rude to refuse to use someone’s preferred pronouns- I think it’s even worse to force someone to speak in a way that conflicts with their beliefs for the sake of someone else’s beliefs. Like- infinitely worse.

I don’t think anyone has the power to compel someone to think a certain way- but I do think tras have a way of making allies feel guilty for their own sexuality and bodies, and I think they often push a narrative that tells whoever listens that if they don’t accept the tra stance on sexuality, sex, and what makes someone a woman or a man (all areas they seem to still be working out as every week something else is transphobic and their usage of sex and gender changes as they need it to imo)- they’re a bigot. Tras have a tendency to tell the rest of us that we need to think how and what they think, and if we don’t, we get threatened, dismissed, labeled, and if applicable “canceled”. People lose jobs, get social media accounts suspended, etc all for thinking something tras don’t want us to think, and expressing it. That’s part of my question- does your school’s student bill of rights dictate that any and all ideological practices any student may hold be observed and practiced by all students, or is it just the preferred pronouns of trans students?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes it’s easy to say “she.”

That's interesting. My view is very different. I have a very hard time calling an obvious male person, she - and calling someone I know to be female, he. Making note of people's sex is basic instinctual behavior of humans, and female humans tend to be better at sexing others than male humans, for obvious reasons. Also, using sex-based pronouns when we speak of other individuals is basic to my mother tongue, English, and the other languages I've studied.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (40 children)

To us the trans movement is not an ideology, it's a fact of life. If you identify as a man, you're a man. If you identify as a woman, you're a woman. By the way, the pronoun rule applies to staff, not students and I have no issue with it. Though even in high school I used she for a trans girl.

Riley is an incel. She made a video about how dating preferences are discriminatory. It wasn't about just refusing to date trans people. It was also about refusing to date people who are black, fat or disabled. That is wrong. You can refuse to date anyone for any reason. Though the video Magdalen was responding to was about "TERFs".

We can't control who we are attracted to and we can refuse to date or sleep with whoever we want. I myself have rejected some cis men because they were ugly and I just wasn't attracted to them, even though they found me hot. That's just part of live. I think most TRAs agree with this. Riley apparently doesn't.

I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted. but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree, the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant. Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Numbering is easier for me lol

  1. I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population. That’s why I asked my questions on this post. If it’s fact for an individual but not a universal fact, how can someone call it fact and demand it of others? Particularly when they can’t prove it to be true? I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called. I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

  2. I think Riley Dennis is an asshole. Makes me uncomfortable. Just venting lol

  3. I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit. If it’s not a view held by most, it shouldn’t be a view we hear so frequently, with no real contradiction. I have a hard time believing that these topics are limited to a small portion of the community, simply because the majority isn’t doing much to quell that narrative.

  4. “I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted.”

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology. To call it bigotry is so incredibly unfair and imo shortsighted.

“but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree,”

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

“the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant.”

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats. Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc. This happened recently can’t remember her name, but she made and sold “adult human female” t shirts and tras got her shit down. Stuff like that shouldn’t happen. Tras should just not buy the shirts and I’d even understand talking about it, but no actions towards closing her shop should’ve happened. Etsy is not an lgbt site. It should have remained neutral. Agree to disagree can totally be the stance- but actively trying to shut down/cancel people or businesses is not agreeing to disagree. Forcing your preferred language isn’t either. (Not saying you’re doing this, just in general).

“Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules”

A few things about this-

•as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

•trans people should allow people to have those spaces without invading them. Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs, reported them all of that stuff- they could have and imo should have- left us alone like we left their spaces alone. Saying that males are men and females are women has never really been proven to be hate speech. As I said above, it’s much more akin to a simple difference of beliefs about sex and biology. Even if TWAW, they’d make up less than 1% of women, most women would still be female- imo, it’s wrong of TW to shut down women’s spaces (same for TM and male spaces, or just any space where trans topics may not be discussed as trans people wish) just because those women (or men, or people) disagree with them. Blocking or not viewing subs that you don’t like is incredibly easy. Tras don’t seem to want to live and let live or agree to disagree- it feels like the goal is total dominance of discussion and absolute capitulation. And all over a “fact of life” that they can’t prove and can’t even agree upon amongst themselves.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population.

Most of society has accepted trans women are women and trans men are men. Otherwise GC wouldn't complain about being cancelled or silenced and most platforms wouldn't ban GC views.

I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called.

That's what most people do. Generally, I correct people, call them a TERF and I don't take whatever they have to say seriously. But I still can't force you to use someone's preferred pronouns.

I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

Than find another job. You are welcome not to work in the public schools.

I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit.

That's like saying Muslims are obligated to speak out against terrorism.

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology.

Most of us think that is bigotry. Most of us don’t define ourselves by our biology. While I was assigned female at birth, when I say I'm female I'm referring to my gender identity.

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats.

Who is banning her books? This is the US, and we have free speech.

Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc.

You're always welcome to find another platform to sell your stuff. You are also welcome to boycott Etsy if you don’t agree with this.

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

You're always welcome to create your own spaces. You can open up gender critical gyms and keep people assigned male at birth out of women’s locker rooms. You can open up GC schools. Just mainstream society is OK with gender neutral bathrooms and you're welcome not to use mainstream facilities.

as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

Reddit is neutral. Them banning all the gender critical subs doesn't mean they aren't neutral.

Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs,

GC people also troll trans subs. Here is one example.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/ftm/comments/ggbus3/sex_party_dysphoria_nsfw/

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

  1. I think more people are willing to share spaces with someone they think is at risk and just go ahead and use preferred pronouns rather than risk someone going home and harming themselves because you correctly identify their sex than that actually believe that TWAW... most people don’t care or aren’t informed enough to truly care. People hear the misrepresented statistics and see the sob stories and have enough sympathy that they go along because they don’t fully see the implications. But studies show that approval rates are dropping yearly and most people don’t really fully include them as their preferred “gender”- example one being the whole sex thing we just got done talking about.

  2. Sounds like you’re saying you pressure for compelled speech then resort to insult when you don’t get it...

  3. So only people who capitulate to your ideology get to work in public schools. That’s precisely what my post is questioning. How do you make that call for the entire school when it’s not even applicable to almost 100% of its students? You disregard the feelings and beliefs of everyone who doesn’t see things your way? So potentially students, staff, and parents may feel uncomfortable or unsafe (more so students) so that maybe one kid will have validation? Seems aggressive and oppressive but I’ll move on

  4. No it’s not at all related to Muslims clarifying that they aren’t terrorists. Not all terrorists are Muslim and certainly you know Muslim does not equal terrorist. Anyone who isn’t a racist understands this. The thing is, go on any social media, watch the YouTube videos- many many tras on those outlets seem to be pushing people to sleep with or at least lie and say they are open to sleeping with trans people. In your example, Muslims (or people racists assume to be Muslim) are being associated with a racist stereotype- but trans people and their allies are actually calling us bigots for not wanting to fuck them. A lot of them are. Your example doesn’t really work when- unlike with Muslims being terrorists- there’s ample evidence of trans people and allies pushing this stuff on others. As well as sending death and rape threats.

  5. You think it’s bigotry but nobody can ever explain why it’s bigotry? Just because you say so? Just because it’s not what you want to hear?

  6. You weren’t assigned female, you were observed to be female.

  7. There’s a bookshop near where I live that did attempt to ban her books. I actually think they didn’t because the books were selling more lol

  8. I mean I guess you can say rape and death threats are free speech. But if and when they get sent to trans people I bet you’re not so blasé about it. It being free speech to threaten harm to a woman for not fully agreeing with you is not a great justification for it but go off I guess

  9. The point is still- why does an ideology that falters under scrutiny get to dictate what’s acceptable to sell on Etsy? Why when women say that they find the things TW say about womanhood misogynistic, we get told to shut up- but a male can say whatever he wants about his understanding of womanhood and he gets applauded? Her shop was put back up and it actually brought her more attention and more sales so I guess it’s all good but still

  10. Lmfao we did create our own spaces. They got invaded by males. And if mainstream society was as comfortable as you claim, there’d be no sexual pressure, no stealthing, no claims that “cis” people don’t want to date trans people, no issues over female sports, and certainly TW wouldn’t claim to be afraid to pee in the men’s room. I think you’re arguing from an idea that outside of the internet, the majority is supportive of trans people. And I don’t think it’s true in the ways you believe it to be.

  11. Banning gc subs and female specific subs is not neutral at all. Rape subs, incel subs, violent subs are still up- but women saying women are not male? Even a sub where trans people willingly participated? Gone. That is not neutral.

  12. I feel confident that there are more trans people or allies trolling us than the reverse- but my point is 1) you said create our own spaces, we did. And trans people came and trolled and harassed. Even after we got kicked off of Reddit. They followed us to troll on a whole different platform. 2) if both sides are guilty of the same shit, then QT and GC subs should either both be gone or both still exist. Everything qt can accuse gc of can be said about them.

I just think everything you’re saying is coming from your ideology which I expected, but is also the whole reason I made this post, to understand why your ideology is allowed to be forced. You just say to us it’s fact. That doesn’t really answer (though I appreciate you engaging). you don’t have proof of your claims, there’s much discrediting your claims, but you call it fact and use that to justify silencing people who don’t accept beliefs as gospel. It’s an alarming phenomenon, and one I don’t think is sustainable.

My whole point was to figure out why trans ideology is allowed to be pushed, and I still don’t really feel I have an answer. Now I just feel more worried for females in general

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

  1. I asked people on the internet if all bathrooms should be gender neutral. Most said yes.

  2. You still have the right not to use someone's pronouns. No one can force you. I have the right to call you a TERF and dismiss your opinions.

  3. You're welcome to work in a private school or another school district. The point is, sometimes your work may require you to go against your beliefs. For instance a catholic teacher who refuses to teach evolution.

  4. Most QTs believe you can refuse to date anyone for any reason.

  5. Yes our side considers the other side transphobic bigots. We have the right to our opinions, GCs have the right to theirs.

  6. I was assigned female based on observation.

  7. There are plenty of other bookshops you can shop.

  8. Threats are not OK.

  9. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like the rules, you can sell your stuff elsewhere. You can boycott Etsy if you want.

  10. If you create gender critical only spaces, no one will invade them as they will have a reputation for being transphobic and bigoted.

  11. To us GC speech is hate speech. So we see this as banning hate speech.

  12. I read Ovarit and have to see QTs troll Ovarit. I do remember QTs trolling r/gendercritical though.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hahahahaha what?! You asked some people on the internet, therefore the majority of people alive agree with you? You cannot tell me you think this is a sensible conclusion or even close to respectable data.

Honestly at this stage, dismiss away. You are not an expert, nor an influential individual, and you are clearly incapable of participating in unbiased, actual research of any kind.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

  1. Who did you ask? Also- thinking bathrooms should be gender neutral doesn’t mean they’ve swallowed TRA rhetoric

  2. I’m saying we should have the right to not use forced pronouns without repercussions professionally and without receiving threats. Idgaf if someone wants to dismiss me on a personal level. My point is pronouns should be optional, where it matters. Like people shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for not feeding misogyny. People should not have to choose between speaking against their beliefs ans having a job. A catholic teacher can have a whole career and never have to teach evolution. People who don’t want to lie about sex can’t avoid pronoun enforcement so easily. My whole thing that I keep wanting you to address is- even if you think what you believe is truth and fact, how can you dismiss the fact that others believe differently? A catholic teacher can work in a public school and teach a grade or subject that doesn’t touch evolution. Forcing ideology through pronouns would still be something they’d have to deal with.

  3. I’d rather fight for people to have freedom of speech than tell people who understand basic biology to gaslight themselves daily. People shouldn’t have to hide the fact that they understand sex in humans to protect anyone’s feelings imo

  4. You’re just gonna ignore my point and that’s fine I’m done pushing qt to address what I’m actually saying.

  5. See number 4 lol

  6. Sex isn’t assigned. If anything you were assigned female by your dad’s sperm but everything else is just how you developed. And even your dad didn’t intentionally make you female. Unless you’re intersex and your sex had to be determined? Pretty sure intersex people have asked qt to stop equating being observed the sex you were born with being assigned one but moving on...

  7. Don’t have to because people showed up to support jkr and the store reconsidered. It’s gonna be a small ass world for tras if you just banish everyone who disagrees with you lol

  8. At least you’ll acknowledge that

  9. Again- Etsy let her put the shop back up and it’s thriving. Etsy gave into woke culture and then changed their mind. A lot of sites are allowing gc stuff more and more lately I’ve noticed

  10. They literally did invade GC spaces how are you missing what I’m saying?

  11. To us, banning logic sounds like knowing your ideology is founded on things you can’t prove and so instead of trying you suppress and silence which... historically, the bad side does this...

  12. I’ve seen it but I’m no longer on the site to screen shot it. Point is still that QT could just ignore GC subs and spaces. But even though nobody on gc threatened anyone or harmed anyone, they had to silence the women who disagree with them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

  1. I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

  2. Employers are allowed to fire you for posting racist, sexist and homophobic speech on your social media. Why is transphobia the exception? If this is an issue for you, go speak to your politicians. Then it will be illegal for employers to fire you based on racist, sexist, ableist, anti-Semitic, homophobic and transphobic speech you post on social media.

Also, as a cis woman (not that the cis part matters to us), pronouns are not feeding misogyny.

  1. I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

  2. Sex is assigned.

  3. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want.

  4. To us, we are banning hate speech.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A fact of life? Do men who want to be women exist, or do they inexplicably turn into women (retroactively too, erasing the fact that they were ever men who wanted to be women) as soon as they feel that way? What part of 'woman' is it they covet so much anyway? Apparently men can be both feminine & female according to the trans movement's definitely-not-an-ideology. So what's the motivation? What's the difference between a feminine female "man" & a 'woman'?

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In most cases no one can force you to use someone's preferred pronouns.

It's become very expected - the idea of "force" here is extreme. No one can force you to do anything, really. No one can force you not to kill another person, right? You are just risking arrest and trial but you can still do it if you really want! You're just accepting possible consequences.

But the point is, it's become culturally unacceptable to not use the pronouns asked of you. It's become dangerous to careers, family relationships, general social standing. You are labeled a "bigot" and equated to someone who commits hate crimes and does not accept homosexuality or people of other races. It's not just an ordinary choice in many situations: it comes with cultural judgment.

Disagreeing about religion is not the same. In modern society it's okay to respect someone's right to believe in God but at the same time say that you do not. People don't feel like they have to hide it and pretend they go to church. It doesn't generally put your job in danger to state that you are not religious.

These things get complicated since the idea that you can have "different beliefs" is complicated. Maybe sometimes you just can't respect someone whose beliefs seem unjust. But on the other hand, maybe you just don't understand why they believe it, and it's not as hateful as you are assuming. Maybe we can talk about it sometimes, and give people the benefit of the doubt & respect difference when we're not up to getting into a debate. At very least, it gets more of what people actually think out into the open, and allows more points of view ...

Though I do consider misgendering rude and I wont take you seriously if you misgender someone. Magdalen Berns did a video responding to a video by Riley Dennis and she kept referring to Riley as he. Because of that I automatically dismissed her arguments.

But isn't this forcing someone to use pronouns? If you won't listen to a person unless they follow your rules about pronoun usage, then at least within your sphere you are forcing pronoun usage - they will not be allowed into your sphere otherwise. Christians could say it's rude not to end every conversation with a mutual "blessed be the Lord" (it doesn't mean anything to you after all). People who believe they're cats could say it's rude not to meow when they enter rooms (is it really costing you anything?).

Do you think TRAs have the power to compel you to think a certain way?

It is just social pressure - if you have the influence to get enough to follow, you can compel people to behave the way you like or risk social exile. No one has to actually agree, just feel too meek to be the one to speak up

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

But the point is, it's become culturally unacceptable to not use the pronouns asked of you. It's become dangerous to careers, family relationships, general social standing. You are labeled a "bigot" and equated to someone who commits hate crimes and does not accept homosexuality or people of other races.

First people are entitled to their opinions and if they feel you're a bigot, that is their right. You are more than welcome to find friends who agree with you. There are sites and apps specifically to meet people who share your interests.

But isn't this forcing someone to use pronouns?

It's not. She has every right not to use Riley's preferred pronouns. I have every right not to listen to her. It goes both ways.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's not. She has every right

Once again, couldn't we say that I have every right to murder someone (or, how about, punch someone in the face), I just have to accept that I might get arrested and sent to jail for it? To say someone has "every right" to do something except that it comes with certain social limitations is very misleading. If I want to be your friend, I do not have "every right" to use the biological pronouns, right? If I want to be part of your social circle, I have to agree to use the requested pronouns.

As you say, I can choose to not be your friend, but can I choose to not work at my job, go to my school, attend my co-op meetings or whatever other places the issue might come up? At what point does it go from politely respecting differences to attempting to insure that the wrong form of thinking ends? You can say you aren't "forcing" ideas, but are there things you don't believe that you also don't exile people from your social circle for believing (maybe some on the animal rights, abortion, death penalty, jesus, metaphysics scale..) ?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can always find another social circle.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fine, but can I always find another job, school, neighborhood? And should I have to due to a difference in belief? We don't request that people publicly agree to certain or even popular thinking when it comes to other political or religious thinking