QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

Why is it that your ideology is the only one that must be adhered to, lest someone be considered transphobic/bigoted?

What I mean is, even if we don’t consider the current tra stance/ideology a religion, it’s very clearly a belief system. Whether it is as deep as TWAW/TMAM or simply that trans people are trans, technically not the gender/sex they’d prefer to be seen as, but we should see and treat them as their preferred sex/gender, or somewhere in between. To me, it seems like QT believes that if you don’t accept what they belief and adjust to it, you’re wrong.

I don’t just mean using preferred pronouns and sharing spaces, it seems like acknowledging sex, not thinking of trans people as the wish to be thought of (which is, let’s face it, out of our control), not including them where they want to be included (be it spaces or your very sexuality) wanting sexuality to mean what it has always meant and be respected, etc is all considered transphobic regardless of what pronouns we use or don’t use and how we treat trans people.

It seems like we, as a society, are at a place where we can agree (for the most part) that people should be allowed to believe what they believe and have those beliefs respected, but nobody should force others to go along with their own beliefs.

So I’m asking:

  1. Why is gender ideology the exception to that?

  2. What makes gender ideology different form any other belief system/community, that members of the trans community get to demand that people outside of that community adhere to their beliefs?

  3. How do we know which sub community in the trans community to listen to, when there are so many contradictions amongst tras/trans people?

  4. Being that the trans community is such a small percentage of the population, is it fair and reasonable to expect roughly 99% of the population the adapt to the ideology and needs/wants of 1%? Are there any other instances where this was fair and reasonable?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

I'm not QT, so I'm not in a position to answer the reasonable questions you've raised. But I have one small point to make about this one statement:

It seems like we, as a society, are at a place where we can agree (for the most part) that people should be allowed to believe what they believe and have those beliefs respected, but nobody should force others to go along with their own beliefs.

In democratic societies based on pluralism as well as freedom of expression, individuals and groups are and should be allowed to believe whatever they believe and to have their right to believe what they want respected, but not to have their beliefs themselves respected. A diverse, democratic society can only function well if its members are able to subject all beliefs - no matter what they are or who holds them - to scrutiny, criticism, skepticism, debate, argument, challenge, refutation and rejection, as well as to disdain, scorn, ridicule, satire, scoffing, parody, mockery and so on.

That doesn't mean that most people in democratic societies won't or don't respect certain beliefs - their own or others. Most of us do respect various beliefs either because we find the arguments and evidence for them convincing and compelling, or because we've chosen to make leaps of faith. It just means no one should be obliged to respect or pretend to respect any beliefs "just because."

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

When I say “respect” I just mean that even if I disagree, I acknowledge that you have the right to believe whatever you believe, and even if I ridicule it, it’s not for me to try to force you to believe otherwise. So in this context, TW have a right to consider themselves women and ask others to use female pronouns etc- but I have a right to decline based on my own beliefs. Yes we can debate and discuss and challenge beliefs- but at the end of the day no matter how wrong we think someone’s ideology is, they have the right to believe in it. The actions they take because of those beliefs and the consequences of those beliefs are a different story, but I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.” Even though that’s literally what tras do. Like we can express our views and point out flaws and issues, but if that doesn’t change someone’s mind then it is what it is and there’s not much we can do but respect that someone thinks differently. I can’t word what I’m trying to say well, sorry. Like an atheist can tell a theist not to say “god bless you” after the atheist sneezes, but an atheist can’t ask a theist not to pray and go to church, or not to say “god bless you” when another person sneezes. And a theist can try to “save” someone, but can’t (in theory- this is a bad example because “history”) force them to convert, if that makes sense.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LoveS, I wasn't disagreeing with either the word "right" or "respect" or the general point. I was quibbling over the part where you said

people should be allowed to believe what they believe and have those beliefs respected

I think we all need to respect other people's right to believe what they believe, as you say, but I draw the line at everyone having and expecting to "have their beliefs respected." I respect my parents' right to believe in Roman Catholicism, but I do not respect many of the beliefs of Roman Catholic doctrine itself - or the beliefs inherent to many other religions, either. I respect the right of other people to believe in gender ideology, but I do not respect that ideology itself. I think it's a bunch of regressive, pernicious made-up malarkey entirely based on sexist stereotypes and misogyny. And I don't think genderists (or anyone else) must "have their beliefs respected."

but I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.”

I never said that we should go around telling people their beliefs are wrong, so they better stop believing them, nor did I imply such a thing, so I'm not clear why you'd say this to me. I wouldn't say such a thing in a million years, in fact, coz telling someone that would be pointless - and rude. Anyone familiar with basic human psychology knows that shaming and scolding people for their beliefs only makes them dig in their heels - and it's disrespectful of them as persons too.

My position is that if you disagree with other people's beliefs and their beliefs bother you to the point where you you want to try to get them to abandon their beliefs, you don't tell them that they and their beliefs are "wrong" - you refute those beliefs with evidence-based arguments presented in a civil tone.

But even so, I'm not big on the idea that any of us can change anyone else's minds. Each of us can only change our own minds - and the first step in doing that is to open our minds.

For the most part, I'm very "live and let live" when it comes to other people's beliefs. I am not bothered by the fact that other people believe all sorts of things that I find nonsensical, and I don't spend time arguing against many beliefs I consider harmful or dangerous. For example, I don't spend a lot of time arguing with Islamists, Mormons, anti-vaxxers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Stalinists and so on about their beliefs. As the saying goes, pick your battles.

However, I do spend time arguing against the beliefs held by gender ideologues and queer theorists - both in general and with persons who hold those beliefs - because I find said beliefs to be harmful to individuals and society, and to be a genuine threat to the women's rights and feminist issues I've spent my whole life devoted to. I don't want to go back to the days of my youth and early adulthood when girls & women didn't have a lot of the rights and freedoms that so many take for granted today.

Still, when I argue about gender ideology on forums like this, it's neither with the aim of getting adherents of the ideology to abandon their beliefs - nor with the idea that this will ever happen. My first principal aim is to hone my own arguments and share some of the info and knowledge I've accumulated over a long lifetime so they can be useful to others already in general agreement with my position. And my second principal aim is to reach those who are sitting on the fence or have just begun critically thinking about these matters. My secondary aim is to be an example, to show that it's possible to present one's arguments with clarity and force, even with fierceness, whilst still remaining civil and never resorting to name-calling.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

In most cases no one can force you to use someone's preferred pronouns. There are exceptions. Where I live the student bill of rights for public says students have the right to be addressed by a pronoun consistent with their gender identity. I have no problem with this. It's not hard to say she. I always use people's preferred pronouns. Though I do consider misgendering rude and I wont take you seriously if you misgender someone. Magdalen Berns did a video responding to a video by Riley Dennis and she kept referring to Riley as he. Because of that I automatically dismissed her arguments. She's entitled to speak her mind, I'm entitled not to take her seriously.

I don’t really think we can tell someone “you’re belief is wrong so stop believing it.”

Do you think TRAs have the power to compel you to think a certain way?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

I’m not really sure your response answers what I’m asking but I get what you’re saying. (Eta- nevermind i see you’re responding to a comment, not the post) I feel like with the pronoun thing- it goes against my beliefs. It’s that simple. Yes it’s easy to say “she.” It’s not easy to say it knowing it reinforces an ideology that you find harmful and offensive. As much as it would bother a TW to be called “he”, it bothers me to call a TW “she.” As far is it being in the student Bill of rights- that’s exactly the type of thing I’m talking about- why and how is it fair to force some students to speak against their own beliefs in favor of another student’s beliefs? That’s the question I’m asking with my post.

As far as not taking someone seriously for misgendering- that’s... I just feel like if I can listen to and engage with someone I consider a man talk about themself as a if they are a woman it’s just interesting to hear that some people on the other side can’t be bothered to discuss something that concerns both of us because I won’t capitulate to their views. Riley Dennis is a misogynist who speaks in incel- even if that’s not applicable to all TW, it damn sure applies to Dennis- the fact that you’ll listen to Dennis pressure others about sexuality but not someone who speaks against that is a red flag imo. To automatically dismiss someone’s arguments over pronouns seems like finding an excuse to run away from the argument. That’s just how I see it and I’m bad at wording things more kindly I apologize.

You consider it rude to refuse to use someone’s preferred pronouns- I think it’s even worse to force someone to speak in a way that conflicts with their beliefs for the sake of someone else’s beliefs. Like- infinitely worse.

I don’t think anyone has the power to compel someone to think a certain way- but I do think tras have a way of making allies feel guilty for their own sexuality and bodies, and I think they often push a narrative that tells whoever listens that if they don’t accept the tra stance on sexuality, sex, and what makes someone a woman or a man (all areas they seem to still be working out as every week something else is transphobic and their usage of sex and gender changes as they need it to imo)- they’re a bigot. Tras have a tendency to tell the rest of us that we need to think how and what they think, and if we don’t, we get threatened, dismissed, labeled, and if applicable “canceled”. People lose jobs, get social media accounts suspended, etc all for thinking something tras don’t want us to think, and expressing it. That’s part of my question- does your school’s student bill of rights dictate that any and all ideological practices any student may hold be observed and practiced by all students, or is it just the preferred pronouns of trans students?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes it’s easy to say “she.”

That's interesting. My view is very different. I have a very hard time calling an obvious male person, she - and calling someone I know to be female, he. Making note of people's sex is basic instinctual behavior of humans, and female humans tend to be better at sexing others than male humans, for obvious reasons. Also, using sex-based pronouns when we speak of other individuals is basic to my mother tongue, English, and the other languages I've studied.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (40 children)

To us the trans movement is not an ideology, it's a fact of life. If you identify as a man, you're a man. If you identify as a woman, you're a woman. By the way, the pronoun rule applies to staff, not students and I have no issue with it. Though even in high school I used she for a trans girl.

Riley is an incel. She made a video about how dating preferences are discriminatory. It wasn't about just refusing to date trans people. It was also about refusing to date people who are black, fat or disabled. That is wrong. You can refuse to date anyone for any reason. Though the video Magdalen was responding to was about "TERFs".

We can't control who we are attracted to and we can refuse to date or sleep with whoever we want. I myself have rejected some cis men because they were ugly and I just wasn't attracted to them, even though they found me hot. That's just part of live. I think most TRAs agree with this. Riley apparently doesn't.

I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted. but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree, the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant. Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Numbering is easier for me lol

  1. I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population. That’s why I asked my questions on this post. If it’s fact for an individual but not a universal fact, how can someone call it fact and demand it of others? Particularly when they can’t prove it to be true? I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called. I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

  2. I think Riley Dennis is an asshole. Makes me uncomfortable. Just venting lol

  3. I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit. If it’s not a view held by most, it shouldn’t be a view we hear so frequently, with no real contradiction. I have a hard time believing that these topics are limited to a small portion of the community, simply because the majority isn’t doing much to quell that narrative.

  4. “I absolutely feel people shouldn't be threatened for stating their opinions, even if they are bigoted.”

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology. To call it bigotry is so incredibly unfair and imo shortsighted.

“but I also feel people should have the right to dismiss your opinions if they dont agree,”

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

“the right to boycott your products (like Harry Potter books) or refuse to eat at your restaurant.”

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats. Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc. This happened recently can’t remember her name, but she made and sold “adult human female” t shirts and tras got her shit down. Stuff like that shouldn’t happen. Tras should just not buy the shirts and I’d even understand talking about it, but no actions towards closing her shop should’ve happened. Etsy is not an lgbt site. It should have remained neutral. Agree to disagree can totally be the stance- but actively trying to shut down/cancel people or businesses is not agreeing to disagree. Forcing your preferred language isn’t either. (Not saying you’re doing this, just in general).

“Also if you don't like sites banning your content you can create your own site, like GC did with Ovarit. That's actually more advantageous because they don't have to follow Reddit's rules”

A few things about this-

•as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

•trans people should allow people to have those spaces without invading them. Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs, reported them all of that stuff- they could have and imo should have- left us alone like we left their spaces alone. Saying that males are men and females are women has never really been proven to be hate speech. As I said above, it’s much more akin to a simple difference of beliefs about sex and biology. Even if TWAW, they’d make up less than 1% of women, most women would still be female- imo, it’s wrong of TW to shut down women’s spaces (same for TM and male spaces, or just any space where trans topics may not be discussed as trans people wish) just because those women (or men, or people) disagree with them. Blocking or not viewing subs that you don’t like is incredibly easy. Tras don’t seem to want to live and let live or agree to disagree- it feels like the goal is total dominance of discussion and absolute capitulation. And all over a “fact of life” that they can’t prove and can’t even agree upon amongst themselves.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I guess I get the “it’s a fact of life” thing, but it would also be a fact of life that what’s fact for qt is not fact for a large majority of the population.

Most of society has accepted trans women are women and trans men are men. Otherwise GC wouldn't complain about being cancelled or silenced and most platforms wouldn't ban GC views.

I understand that if I had preferred pronouns I’d request that others use them. but to me, if others decline, I can’t do anything but not engage with them and engage with those that call me what I wish to be called.

That's what most people do. Generally, I correct people, call them a TERF and I don't take whatever they have to say seriously. But I still can't force you to use someone's preferred pronouns.

I don’t think the staff should have to potentially compromise their beliefs either- nobody should be compelled to speak in a way that’s contrary to their beliefs. Nobody.

Than find another job. You are welcome not to work in the public schools.

I hear people say that most tras agree that we can’t control attraction etc- but I always wonder why they aren’t clarifying and speaking out over the small (they always say it’s a small amount of tras/trans people) amount who push homophobic or whatever the “heterophobic” equivalent would be narrative. I can almost accept that it’s a small percentage of tras/trans people who are extremists- but the silence of the majority is starting to feel like they’re complicit.

That's like saying Muslims are obligated to speak out against terrorism.

That’s the thing- I don’t think it’s bigotry to say a male is not a woman or a female is not a man. That’s not rooted in hatred or disdain- it comes entirely from a different understanding of sex and biology.

Most of us think that is bigotry. Most of us don’t define ourselves by our biology. While I was assigned female at birth, when I say I'm female I'm referring to my gender identity.

Agreed. But books shouldn’t be banned and lies about her shouldn’t have been spread, she shouldn’t have received death and rape threats- and allies shouldn’t have defended the sending of those threats.

Who is banning her books? This is the US, and we have free speech.

Etsy shops and such shouldn’t be shut down for being gc.

You're always welcome to find another platform to sell your stuff. You are also welcome to boycott Etsy if you don’t agree with this.

I agree- which is why enforcing pronouns and forcing females to share spaces with males is unfair to me.

You're always welcome to create your own spaces. You can open up gender critical gyms and keep people assigned male at birth out of women’s locker rooms. You can open up GC schools. Just mainstream society is OK with gender neutral bathrooms and you're welcome not to use mainstream facilities.

as far as I know, Reddit is not an lgbt site. Reddit should have remained neutral also-

Reddit is neutral. Them banning all the gender critical subs doesn't mean they aren't neutral.

Trans people troll ovarit, trolled the gc subs,

GC people also troll trans subs. Here is one example.

https://www.removeddit.com/r/ftm/comments/ggbus3/sex_party_dysphoria_nsfw/

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

  1. I think more people are willing to share spaces with someone they think is at risk and just go ahead and use preferred pronouns rather than risk someone going home and harming themselves because you correctly identify their sex than that actually believe that TWAW... most people don’t care or aren’t informed enough to truly care. People hear the misrepresented statistics and see the sob stories and have enough sympathy that they go along because they don’t fully see the implications. But studies show that approval rates are dropping yearly and most people don’t really fully include them as their preferred “gender”- example one being the whole sex thing we just got done talking about.

  2. Sounds like you’re saying you pressure for compelled speech then resort to insult when you don’t get it...

  3. So only people who capitulate to your ideology get to work in public schools. That’s precisely what my post is questioning. How do you make that call for the entire school when it’s not even applicable to almost 100% of its students? You disregard the feelings and beliefs of everyone who doesn’t see things your way? So potentially students, staff, and parents may feel uncomfortable or unsafe (more so students) so that maybe one kid will have validation? Seems aggressive and oppressive but I’ll move on

  4. No it’s not at all related to Muslims clarifying that they aren’t terrorists. Not all terrorists are Muslim and certainly you know Muslim does not equal terrorist. Anyone who isn’t a racist understands this. The thing is, go on any social media, watch the YouTube videos- many many tras on those outlets seem to be pushing people to sleep with or at least lie and say they are open to sleeping with trans people. In your example, Muslims (or people racists assume to be Muslim) are being associated with a racist stereotype- but trans people and their allies are actually calling us bigots for not wanting to fuck them. A lot of them are. Your example doesn’t really work when- unlike with Muslims being terrorists- there’s ample evidence of trans people and allies pushing this stuff on others. As well as sending death and rape threats.

  5. You think it’s bigotry but nobody can ever explain why it’s bigotry? Just because you say so? Just because it’s not what you want to hear?

  6. You weren’t assigned female, you were observed to be female.

  7. There’s a bookshop near where I live that did attempt to ban her books. I actually think they didn’t because the books were selling more lol

  8. I mean I guess you can say rape and death threats are free speech. But if and when they get sent to trans people I bet you’re not so blasé about it. It being free speech to threaten harm to a woman for not fully agreeing with you is not a great justification for it but go off I guess

  9. The point is still- why does an ideology that falters under scrutiny get to dictate what’s acceptable to sell on Etsy? Why when women say that they find the things TW say about womanhood misogynistic, we get told to shut up- but a male can say whatever he wants about his understanding of womanhood and he gets applauded? Her shop was put back up and it actually brought her more attention and more sales so I guess it’s all good but still

  10. Lmfao we did create our own spaces. They got invaded by males. And if mainstream society was as comfortable as you claim, there’d be no sexual pressure, no stealthing, no claims that “cis” people don’t want to date trans people, no issues over female sports, and certainly TW wouldn’t claim to be afraid to pee in the men’s room. I think you’re arguing from an idea that outside of the internet, the majority is supportive of trans people. And I don’t think it’s true in the ways you believe it to be.

  11. Banning gc subs and female specific subs is not neutral at all. Rape subs, incel subs, violent subs are still up- but women saying women are not male? Even a sub where trans people willingly participated? Gone. That is not neutral.

  12. I feel confident that there are more trans people or allies trolling us than the reverse- but my point is 1) you said create our own spaces, we did. And trans people came and trolled and harassed. Even after we got kicked off of Reddit. They followed us to troll on a whole different platform. 2) if both sides are guilty of the same shit, then QT and GC subs should either both be gone or both still exist. Everything qt can accuse gc of can be said about them.

I just think everything you’re saying is coming from your ideology which I expected, but is also the whole reason I made this post, to understand why your ideology is allowed to be forced. You just say to us it’s fact. That doesn’t really answer (though I appreciate you engaging). you don’t have proof of your claims, there’s much discrediting your claims, but you call it fact and use that to justify silencing people who don’t accept beliefs as gospel. It’s an alarming phenomenon, and one I don’t think is sustainable.

My whole point was to figure out why trans ideology is allowed to be pushed, and I still don’t really feel I have an answer. Now I just feel more worried for females in general

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

  1. I asked people on the internet if all bathrooms should be gender neutral. Most said yes.

  2. You still have the right not to use someone's pronouns. No one can force you. I have the right to call you a TERF and dismiss your opinions.

  3. You're welcome to work in a private school or another school district. The point is, sometimes your work may require you to go against your beliefs. For instance a catholic teacher who refuses to teach evolution.

  4. Most QTs believe you can refuse to date anyone for any reason.

  5. Yes our side considers the other side transphobic bigots. We have the right to our opinions, GCs have the right to theirs.

  6. I was assigned female based on observation.

  7. There are plenty of other bookshops you can shop.

  8. Threats are not OK.

  9. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like the rules, you can sell your stuff elsewhere. You can boycott Etsy if you want.

  10. If you create gender critical only spaces, no one will invade them as they will have a reputation for being transphobic and bigoted.

  11. To us GC speech is hate speech. So we see this as banning hate speech.

  12. I read Ovarit and have to see QTs troll Ovarit. I do remember QTs trolling r/gendercritical though.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hahahahaha what?! You asked some people on the internet, therefore the majority of people alive agree with you? You cannot tell me you think this is a sensible conclusion or even close to respectable data.

Honestly at this stage, dismiss away. You are not an expert, nor an influential individual, and you are clearly incapable of participating in unbiased, actual research of any kind.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

  1. Who did you ask? Also- thinking bathrooms should be gender neutral doesn’t mean they’ve swallowed TRA rhetoric

  2. I’m saying we should have the right to not use forced pronouns without repercussions professionally and without receiving threats. Idgaf if someone wants to dismiss me on a personal level. My point is pronouns should be optional, where it matters. Like people shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for not feeding misogyny. People should not have to choose between speaking against their beliefs ans having a job. A catholic teacher can have a whole career and never have to teach evolution. People who don’t want to lie about sex can’t avoid pronoun enforcement so easily. My whole thing that I keep wanting you to address is- even if you think what you believe is truth and fact, how can you dismiss the fact that others believe differently? A catholic teacher can work in a public school and teach a grade or subject that doesn’t touch evolution. Forcing ideology through pronouns would still be something they’d have to deal with.

  3. I’d rather fight for people to have freedom of speech than tell people who understand basic biology to gaslight themselves daily. People shouldn’t have to hide the fact that they understand sex in humans to protect anyone’s feelings imo

  4. You’re just gonna ignore my point and that’s fine I’m done pushing qt to address what I’m actually saying.

  5. See number 4 lol

  6. Sex isn’t assigned. If anything you were assigned female by your dad’s sperm but everything else is just how you developed. And even your dad didn’t intentionally make you female. Unless you’re intersex and your sex had to be determined? Pretty sure intersex people have asked qt to stop equating being observed the sex you were born with being assigned one but moving on...

  7. Don’t have to because people showed up to support jkr and the store reconsidered. It’s gonna be a small ass world for tras if you just banish everyone who disagrees with you lol

  8. At least you’ll acknowledge that

  9. Again- Etsy let her put the shop back up and it’s thriving. Etsy gave into woke culture and then changed their mind. A lot of sites are allowing gc stuff more and more lately I’ve noticed

  10. They literally did invade GC spaces how are you missing what I’m saying?

  11. To us, banning logic sounds like knowing your ideology is founded on things you can’t prove and so instead of trying you suppress and silence which... historically, the bad side does this...

  12. I’ve seen it but I’m no longer on the site to screen shot it. Point is still that QT could just ignore GC subs and spaces. But even though nobody on gc threatened anyone or harmed anyone, they had to silence the women who disagree with them.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A fact of life? Do men who want to be women exist, or do they inexplicably turn into women (retroactively too, erasing the fact that they were ever men who wanted to be women) as soon as they feel that way? What part of 'woman' is it they covet so much anyway? Apparently men can be both feminine & female according to the trans movement's definitely-not-an-ideology. So what's the motivation? What's the difference between a feminine female "man" & a 'woman'?

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

In most cases no one can force you to use someone's preferred pronouns.

It's become very expected - the idea of "force" here is extreme. No one can force you to do anything, really. No one can force you not to kill another person, right? You are just risking arrest and trial but you can still do it if you really want! You're just accepting possible consequences.

But the point is, it's become culturally unacceptable to not use the pronouns asked of you. It's become dangerous to careers, family relationships, general social standing. You are labeled a "bigot" and equated to someone who commits hate crimes and does not accept homosexuality or people of other races. It's not just an ordinary choice in many situations: it comes with cultural judgment.

Disagreeing about religion is not the same. In modern society it's okay to respect someone's right to believe in God but at the same time say that you do not. People don't feel like they have to hide it and pretend they go to church. It doesn't generally put your job in danger to state that you are not religious.

These things get complicated since the idea that you can have "different beliefs" is complicated. Maybe sometimes you just can't respect someone whose beliefs seem unjust. But on the other hand, maybe you just don't understand why they believe it, and it's not as hateful as you are assuming. Maybe we can talk about it sometimes, and give people the benefit of the doubt & respect difference when we're not up to getting into a debate. At very least, it gets more of what people actually think out into the open, and allows more points of view ...

Though I do consider misgendering rude and I wont take you seriously if you misgender someone. Magdalen Berns did a video responding to a video by Riley Dennis and she kept referring to Riley as he. Because of that I automatically dismissed her arguments.

But isn't this forcing someone to use pronouns? If you won't listen to a person unless they follow your rules about pronoun usage, then at least within your sphere you are forcing pronoun usage - they will not be allowed into your sphere otherwise. Christians could say it's rude not to end every conversation with a mutual "blessed be the Lord" (it doesn't mean anything to you after all). People who believe they're cats could say it's rude not to meow when they enter rooms (is it really costing you anything?).

Do you think TRAs have the power to compel you to think a certain way?

It is just social pressure - if you have the influence to get enough to follow, you can compel people to behave the way you like or risk social exile. No one has to actually agree, just feel too meek to be the one to speak up

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

But the point is, it's become culturally unacceptable to not use the pronouns asked of you. It's become dangerous to careers, family relationships, general social standing. You are labeled a "bigot" and equated to someone who commits hate crimes and does not accept homosexuality or people of other races.

First people are entitled to their opinions and if they feel you're a bigot, that is their right. You are more than welcome to find friends who agree with you. There are sites and apps specifically to meet people who share your interests.

But isn't this forcing someone to use pronouns?

It's not. She has every right not to use Riley's preferred pronouns. I have every right not to listen to her. It goes both ways.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's not. She has every right

Once again, couldn't we say that I have every right to murder someone (or, how about, punch someone in the face), I just have to accept that I might get arrested and sent to jail for it? To say someone has "every right" to do something except that it comes with certain social limitations is very misleading. If I want to be your friend, I do not have "every right" to use the biological pronouns, right? If I want to be part of your social circle, I have to agree to use the requested pronouns.

As you say, I can choose to not be your friend, but can I choose to not work at my job, go to my school, attend my co-op meetings or whatever other places the issue might come up? At what point does it go from politely respecting differences to attempting to insure that the wrong form of thinking ends? You can say you aren't "forcing" ideas, but are there things you don't believe that you also don't exile people from your social circle for believing (maybe some on the animal rights, abortion, death penalty, jesus, metaphysics scale..) ?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can always find another social circle.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fine, but can I always find another job, school, neighborhood? And should I have to due to a difference in belief? We don't request that people publicly agree to certain or even popular thinking when it comes to other political or religious thinking

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well the comments on this post took some unexpected turns... 😅

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (114 children)

It isn’t an exception. If you are against gay marriage you are wrong, whether you think marriage should only be between a man and woman or not. Arguing for us to be treated as lesser is the same. And yes that’s exactly what you are doing when you advocate for us to be treated as men when we are clearly marginalized in a way they are not.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

See, you just implied that gay men aren't men. transgendered males experience transphobia – so does anyone who is GNC, it doesn't offset male privilege. the trans population is just as sexist & androcentric as any other microcosm.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

I didn’t say or imply that gay men weren’t men. I said it was wrong to be against gay marriage.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

SEXism & male privilege exist, even within the trans population, therefore trans-womxyn are no more marginalised than any other marginalised group of men. They are as much the privileged majority within their microcosm as gay men & black men are in theirs.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

That’s not even accurate. At the minimum trans women women who pass are treated societally as women and trans men who pass are treated societally as men. This means that at least some level of male privilege is shifted since socially some are treated as who they are by society. Not to mention trans men are more “socially acceptable” than trans women because masculinity is seen as a laudable state generally.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

More wishful thinking on your part. Fact is, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in media representation, high positions & the public-sphere in general (no matter how much either passes), just like gay men compared to lesbians. It's the same exact sexist, patriarchal structure you see everywhere. It turns out socialised gender > felt gender once again. You could argue that the homophobia that gay men receive is worse than what lesbians do – so what? Again, it still doesn't offset male privilege.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

That’s not even accurate. Sure Laverne Cox is famous and Jamie Clayton had one show (produced and directed by a trans woman mind you) but more people would recognize Chaz Bono than Jamie Clayton.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Are we ignoring “Pose”, the L Word reboot, Paris is Burning, the many films about transwomen (though not played by transwomen, all transmen have is Boys Don’t Cry), etc? The fact that if a trans storyline is in a show, it’s significantly more likely to be a TW than a TM? The only shows I can think of that had TM storylines are the original L Word, Shameless (which included a very awkward sexual coercion plot line), and maybe you could count Good Girls.

But it’s not just scripted media- transwomen are much more prevalent on social media platforms, sports, politics, more people would recognize Chaz Bono than Jamie Clayton- because Chaz is Cher’s daughter and her transition was very public- that doesn’t mean that the public would recognize chaz over Laverne, Indya Moore, Blaire White, Tiffany (it’s ma’am), Alexis Arquette, Nikita Dragun, NikkiTutorials, the Wachowski “sisters”, Caitlyn Jenner, Jazz Jennings...

Only other well known transman i can think of is Buck Angel

That’s just entertainment, I haven’t listed anyone from politics or sports (except Jenner)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pose is mostly about cis drag queens and other gay cis men. Other than MJ are there even any trans women in it? Even then how many people would recognize her. Same for Paris is Burning as far as I know, I’ve never seen it. And as you noted most of the stories involving trans women aren’t played by trans women and are generally extremely negative (like that Matt Bomer abomination)

Trans men have some representation, often by cis people as well. (Adam from Degrassi, Tony on Orphan Black, Max from the L word for instance) . Afab people generally have more since most genderqueer characters are Afab. (Ex: Yael from Degrassi and Sid from One day at a time)

I suspect you have a warped perception because of your hypervigilence about trans women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Clearly you haven’t seen Pose if you think the show is more about the two gay guys that are somewhat main characters than the 5 TW... like seriously there’s no way that makes any sense it’s applauded for being a show about transwomen, it was developed by RM and A transwoman with the intent to tell the stories of transwomen. One non trans male is the MC, the other one’s storyline is literally being “adopted” by MJ and helping MJ compete in their competitions against another house comprised mostly of transwomen. Even a quick google shows the point of the show and that you are wrong lol

And Pose was inspired and heavily based on Paris is Burning which again follows mainly 3-4 TW as well as a few other TW who aren’t as heavily featured, though it does include interviews with gay men, the focus is clearly the TW. It opens and closes with them, you see more of their life than the non trans males. I just... If you haven’t seen either just say that rather than pretend that you know what it’s about to prove a point. To ask if there are other TW in Pose is just a huge tell that you haven’t seen it. Just google the posters, I don’t even know that Billy Porter is featured on most of them lol. It’s definitely a show about TW in the 80’s, and Pray Tell is featured as a semi main character because it’s Billy Fucking Porter and the audience loves him.

I don’t have a warped perception- even transwomen in that Netflix documentary acknowledge that TW are more prevalent in the media, though they complain they are misrepresented even when they play themselves...

And you’ve said nothing about all other forms of media? I agree there’s tm representation I never said there wasn’t- what I said and the other poster said is that TW are much more prevalent regardless of who is playing them, stories including them are seen more often. This is something that transmen can acknowledge and quite a few transwomen acknowledge as well. I don’t go out and look for tv shows with tw- these are all shows I was either already watching or watched because I like the creator and or some cast members’ work outside of the show/movie.

  • and considering how many “people of the year” type covers the cast has, I’d assume quite a few people would recognize the cast. But the point isn’t who’s recognized, tho if it were, I see your Chaz Bono and raise you a much more recognized Laverne Cox, And the youtubers i listed. Just because you compared chaz to Jamie doesn’t mean that the TW who are recognized don’t outnumber the TM

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It doesn't matter what type of media you're looking at, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men, whether it's Hollywood movies, or Youtube videos. In the case of "Lefttube", trans-womxyn even outnumber women. This is why accusations by trans-womxyn of women's supposed "cis privilege" is a sexist reversal of the power dynamic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, let's not pretend that representation in entertainment media is the real or sole litmus test. Plenty of older trans-identified males are in incredibly powerful positions in society. Such as tech executive Martine Rothblatt - long famous for being "the highest paid woman in America" - billionaire heir and ex military man Jennifer Pritzker, and the much-honored writer and historian Jan Morris, who died in November at age 94. Morris spent nearly half a century as a "transwoman" and suffered no negative repercussions for it. On the contrary, Morris was constantly lionized, praised and given prestigious positions, publishing contracts and awards.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_film_and_television

Compare the shorter list of trans-men characters to the substantially longer list of trans-womxyn characters. So there, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in media. Case closed.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (96 children)

It’s a whole new year and I don’t have the energy to pretend that this is even close to the topic. This is not an answer to what I asked and honestly I’ve reached a point with you where if you can’t even be bothered to address what I’m saying Im not gonna bother to feed into the BS and attempt to dissect what you’re saying to make it semi relevant some how. I’m done with you accusing me of shit just because you can’t address what I’m actually saying. And I’m done with your false equivalencies. If you ever want to actually debate on topic, I’ll respond. Otherwise-

Have a nice day, happy new year masks

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (95 children)

You asked

So I’m asking: Why is gender ideology the exception to that?

I answered that question directly, because it isn’t an exception at all.

Don’t address my point if you don’t want but at least stop pretending I’m not addressing the question.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You literally answered nothing and brought up gay marriage as a poor analogy. Anybody looking at this thread will see that and I’m not wasting the effort trying to make it clear to you that you haven’t addressed the topic when I know everyone else can see what I see. You’re not addressing shit, and I’m done feeding your narcissistic soap box, so as I said- have a nice day masks, happy new year.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You always ignore my points and resort to petty insults. What do you get out of this?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao have a nice day, happy new year masks

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (91 children)

So non-adherence to your ideology about gender is just wrong?

You pathologically hate males so anyone who disagrees is objectively wrong?

Lmao no. Masks, no.

You might as well be saying we are objectively wrong about having immortal souls.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (90 children)

Arguing For a group to be stripped of the rights they have and denied agency in their own identities is wrong. Yes.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (89 children)

I am not arguing for the stripping of anyone’s rights though. I am arguing that I am not morally, legally, or in any other way obliged to force myself to see people a way I do not. IE, seeing males as women.

I am not obliged to view males the way you do and am not stripping anyone’s rights away by not doing so.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (88 children)

That’s ignoring the implications. If trans women are simply men they would then have no protections and no facilities they can actually use. The implications of your stance is us having no rights.

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

"Rights". Men have got rights, gay men too. What additional "rights" do the transgendered ones require? The right to endlessly seesaw between erasing the female sex & appropriating it? Seeing trans-womxyn as men doesn't indirectly strip them of any rights, seeing them as women strips away at women's rights. Calling trans-womxyn women rids both women & trans-womxyn of definitions, making the whole thing redundant. It'd end up with us just going back to distinguishing between the sexes again anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

What additional "rights" do the transgendered ones require?

Protection from discrimination in employment, housing, education, access to business and common carriers, access to essential services, and protections from discrimination in health care. In America on a national level we have exactly one of those.

Seeing trans-womxyn as men doesn't indirectly strip them of any rights

Yes. It does. Because of the way the few rights we’ve cobbled together have arisen in the courts.

seeing them as women strips away at women's rights.

No. It doesn’t. Women’s legal rights are entirely unchanged.

Calling trans-womxyn women rids both women & trans-womxyn of definitions

This is still offensive and childish. Stop trying to invent your own slur.

It'd end up with us just going back to distinguishing between the sexes again anyway.

Sex and gender are different. You want us grouped by sex which is why you would group me with men. I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men for a litany of reasons, the most important of which is that we are so different that to do so creates a myriad of legal problems and leaves us at the mercy of the unquestionable most powerful and dangerous form of humanity, and the one that does harm to us by a huge margin, men.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The best way to protect trans rights is to have them tied to trans status, obviously. If trans-men just get men's rights, then they have no rights that address their specific needs. Why should affirming this ideology come before all else? Oh right, trans-men are female i.e. not your concern.

Sex and gender are different

But the genders are not different, that's the point. Distinguishing between the sexes is justified, distinguishing between genders isn't, since anyone can be anything.

I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men

Women expressly don't want to be grouped with men either, nobody does, why on Earth should over 50% of the population's rights be compromised for 0.2% of the population though, especially when we don't discriminate based on orientation? Purge all the gynaephilic "trans-womxyn" from the movement first – that demographic alone is responsible for all the trans on female violent & sexual crimes. Keeping trans people separate from men is one thing (except trans-men apparently???), but grouping trans-womxyn in with women is completely unjustified. Even grouping gay men with women would make more sense, since none of them are gynaephlles.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex and gender are different. You want us grouped by sex which is why you would group me with men. I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men for a litany of reasons, the most important of which is that we are so different that to do so creates a myriad of legal problems and leaves us at the mercy of the unquestionable most powerful and dangerous form of humanity, and the one that does harm to us by a huge margin, men.

So why not campaign for your own spaces, provisions and protections then instead of horning in on other people's? That's what women, people with physical disabilities and the elderly had to do. How come trans people get to barge in and claim women's hard-won spaces, provisions and sports for their own?

Also, why is it okay for trans identified males to be afraid of other males and want spaces away from them, but it's bigoted and "transphobic" for female people to do the same?

In most cities, there are separate lanes in streets for buses, cars and bicycles, and the sidewalks are for pedestrians and people in prams and wheelchairs. Whenever new forms of transport and recreation come along - skateboards, roller blades, Segways, razor scooters, electric scooters, seated motorized mobility scooters for disabled people (all of which have arrived on the scene within my own lifetime) - municipalities and communities have to get together and decide where the new devices belong.

But a majority of trans people today don't want to be held to the same rules and community decision-making processes as everyone else - they want to be able to go wherever they want whenever they want simply because they demand and insist upon it. The position of many trans people is essentially that if they want to drive a bus or car on the sidewalk or in the bike lane, that's their right. Who cares how many people they mow down and how many rights belonging to others they trample and remove in the process?

Trans activists love to tell others to "stay in your lane" but they don't want to have to carve out a lane for themselves, nor stick to their own lane once it's created.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (80 children)

They would have all the rights other males have. Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Homosexual men are men who need and can access protections despite them being simply men. Why is it different for men who perform femininity/identify as a woman/whatever? What about males being recognised as males makes it impossible for transwomen to be a group of males with certain potential vulnerabilities to other males?

I’m all for discrimination protection for transgender people on the basis of their being transgender. It shouldn’t be reason alone to fire someone, or reject them as a renter, or to deny healthcare that is needed.

Not seeing transwomen as females/women does not deny transwomen any rights. It’s nothing more or less than the statement. It does not mean transgender people should lose any rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (79 children)

They would have all the rights other males have.

Which is no protections. Since any discrimination would be based on being trans not being male.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Trans only facilities don’t exist though. This is a thought expirament at best. Separate facilities would be my preference in an ideal world but don’t exist.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Which they have at least gained some of. You are actively arguing to fully negate any protections trans women have gained. That’s exactly my point. If trans women are “just men” then it would negate the basis for every protection we have managed to scrape together.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

But those protections don’t exist generally and where they are it’s on the basis we are protected as member of our identified gender.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (78 children)

It’s all the protections, plus legal protection against discrimination specifically for being trans. What more could possibly be asked for? It maintains the rights of transgender people and women.

Make them. This issue has been done to death with you. Recognising transwomen as male removes your protections how specifically? What about someone seeing a male as a male makes it suddenly impossible for that person to be protected by aforementioned legal protections?

And transwomen have absolutely zero business in spaces based on their gender. Their sex is male and their self perception should never allow them into spaces for female people.

My ideas provide protection for women’s spaces and women as a category, whilst still calling for legal protection from discrimination for men who is as women, plus advocates for spaces for those men to use safely.

Name the right being stripped away here. Full protections in place. The only thing you wouldn’t get is something you already don’t have, which is control over anyone else’s perception. Nobody can force others to see them as something they are not.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Obligatory not QT, but trans. I feel like QT people don’t see the things they believe as an ideology. I feel like many people see things like not respecting people’s preferred pronouns or gender identity as closer to racism or homophobia. Very few people feel the need to respect racist or homophobic opinions, even if they are sincerely held. I don’t think people being gender critical is like that of course, but I feel like QT sees it more like that and less like a religious belief. I don’t think that fair (and it’s not what I believe), but QT jumps to that to dismiss GC ideas.

In summary, QT doesn’t see themselves as believing in a gender ideology. They just think it’s how things are and people who disagree are bigots.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That makes sense, but it also makes them look hypocritical and delusional. I know we aren’t supposed to use that word, and I’m not calling them actually delusional- I’m just saying that there’s no real evidence for them to use in support of their beliefs, it’s all feeling and identity based, the science is flawed, debunked, or pseudo. To me, saying that you don’t like gay people or poc because they are gay or poc and saying that women are only female due to biological reality are two drastically different things. You can be a racist and support trans people. You can be neither racist nor homophobic and still be labeled “transphobic”. Being gay doesn’t affect anyone else. Being a poc doesn’t either. Being trans and demanding society treat you as if you’re not your has consequences and places demands on everyone else, even if just in small ways. I will never get how that isn’t clear to tras.

It’s remarkable that they can’t understand the idea that they’re not going to convince the full 99% of the population to see things their way. I think what bothers me about that explanation (I agree with you, it’s just a frustrating truth lol) is that, if it’s not an ideology- then it’s fact. There should be no holes in their arguments, no contradictions, and it should be something that is clear and easy to explain to anyone. The rest of us should be able to be taught their beliefs and it should make complete sense on a factual, scientific, biological, and emotionless way. Even if we don’t like that it makes sense. And that’s just not the case at all.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, you won’t get much disagreement from me. It doesn’t really make sense. I feel like trans people can many times use really motivated reasoning. If you were at a place where you felt like believing something was the only way to feel good about yourself, you might try really hard to believe even if it might not be true. You might really want other people to believe it also. People can be engaging in magical thinking without realizing it.

When I was younger, I used to think about how I was in the world and how people saw me and wondered if maybe the weight of everyone’s belief that I was female would be enough to make me real. It didn’t make sense and I don’t know how it would have happened, but it was a thought I had for years. Super magical thinking lol.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I think a part of me absolutely understands the thought process, it’s the extra step of pressuring and all but forcing it on others that is too far imo

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed. I don’t really understand the pressuring and wish it didn’t happen.