QT: a “what if” for you

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

To me it’s not about how other people may see you (though as I’ve said before I think there are circumstances where some people deserve to know the truth), I care about my rights and language and not being forced to be classed with males just because that’s what some males want. I feel like a lot of trans people make it about us being upset because others see them as their target sex. I don’t think gc cares about that. I’m sure some do but I don’t think that’s a gc thing. We care about female rights and women being erased or silenced because “TWAW and we have to center TW and adjust language and understanding to accommodate them” (I just read this online today). I’m not hoping to force people to not transition or take away anything from trans people (I don’t consider female rights and spaces or legal documents being falsified a thing we could take away from transwomen- those were for females to begin with, so to me, we’d be taking it back not away)- I just want women and girls to be allowed to have equality. I feel like so many TW don’t realize that equality literally means that females have their own (from language to spaces and everything in between) and TW their own. Even on this post someone said my premise would be “unacceptable”- so basically admitting that women and girls wanting to be recognized as and by their sex and be distinguished from males would be unacceptable to them. Because it goes against their own desires and beliefs?

I will say I think many trans people overestimate how genuinely they are perceived as the sex they want to appear as (none of this is directed at you to clarify, just in general), and that makes it worse to me because we have so many male people thinking we don’t know they are male but we do and it’s obvious and makes many of us uncomfortable and if we feel uncomfortable (which imo is an involuntary reaction)- we’re bigoted. I fully accept that it’s possible that if women created new terms some passing TW would attempt to adopt those terms for themselves- but that’s why I said it would be a sex specific term. So TW could use the word to people in their personal lives if they chose to be misleading- but they couldn’t legally switch to it and it would be considered falsified to put it down on paperwork or identification.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

I don’t think passing trans people are what GC is usually upset about (although some seem to want to say no one does, which I don’t really argue with because it’s sort of difficult to). I feel like sometimes GC frames all transwomen as being obviously male people who are trying to force themselves into female spaces, force people to refer to them as women, insist they are female, etc. That totally happens and it’s a big problem, but I just have a hard time putting myself into that because that hasn’t been my life. I don’t have any trans friends either. I have to talk about how my life looks to be able to respond to anything.

I don’t feel like you should be classed with males either. Woman and female should refer to you and not to me and I don’t want that to change or be expanded to include me.

I will say I think many trans people overestimate how genuinely they are perceived as the sex they want to appear as (none of this is directed at you to clarify, just in general), and that makes it worse to me because we have so many male people thinking we don’t know they are male but we do and it’s obvious and makes many of us uncomfortable and if we feel uncomfortable (which imo is an involuntary reaction)- we’re bigoted.

Agreed. I’m sorry that is happening. It super understandable how you would feel that way. I feel like I can relate in some ways, but I don’t want presume it’s the same because obviously we are different.

I fully accept that it’s possible that if women created new terms some passing TW would attempt to adopt those terms for themselves- but that’s why I said it would be a sex specific term.

I guess, what do you mean by adopt those terms? I feel like this is why I have a hard time understanding this hypothetical. Would it be like if anyone regarded a passing TW as female (so everyone in practice), would they have to stop everything to say that they weren’t? It seems really difficult to do. It’s sort of where I have difficulty with some of these. Like, maybe the only way we’d do boundaries correctly is if we tattooed “not a female” to our foreheads before moving through the world. I don’t mean to be dramatic, but sometimes I feel like the world GC wants would have to be like this.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

“I guess, what do you mean by adopt those terms? I feel like this is why I have a hard time understanding this hypothetical.”

What I mean is, TW wouldn’t be able to legally change their documents to state that they are women or female. I know that won’t stop some TW from calling themselves those words, but they wouldn’t be able to do it on legal documents and the rights of women would remain female specific (in this scenario “women” and “female” would be the new words, couldn’t think of any made up word lol). So when I said adopt I just meant there’d still be some TW who try to apply the new words to themselves in their private lives, but women’s rights, spaces, and terminology would be sex specific (again “women” meaning the new term we made and “female” meaning biologically female only)

“Would it be like if anyone regarded a passing TW as female (so everyone in practice), would they have to stop everything to say that they weren’t?”

No.

“It seems really difficult to do.”

I disagree. I think it’s uncomfortable for TW to do because they don’t want to, but I don’t get why in theory it would be that difficult to clarify that you’re trans. I understand there are reasons for not wanting to, but I don’t think the idea of clarifying in and of itself is that difficult, when necessary.

“It’s sort of where I have difficulty with some of these. Like, maybe the only way we’d do boundaries correctly is if we tattooed “not a female” to our foreheads before moving through the world. I don’t mean to be dramatic, but sometimes I feel like the world GC wants would have to be like this.”

I don’t think TW have to stamp their foreheads with proclamations. But I do think enough people understand what the word “trans” means that if the need to clarify arises it would be possible to be clear and honest. Trans people don’t want to out themselves, I get it. But I when it comes to certain things- like a female specific job/opportunity, sports, dating, stuff like that- transparency should exist. That doesn’t mean every time someone approaches you you have to inform them that you’re trans, it means when it matters, you should be honest imo.

As far as the boundaries thing- I think it’s kind of up to trans people to respect other people’s boundaries. That’s truly the only way to have boundaries. I feel like you personally come across as someone who does respect women and our boundaries for the most part, I just mean that to me, trans people are the ones who need to be aware of potential boundaries and navigate them. I know that’s shitty to say, but it’s like the stealthing conversations that always got shut down- trans people should respect the sexual boundaries of potential partners. Or the bathroom/sex based spaces thing- gc gets attacked for wanting female spaces to remain female spaces- but the whole point of female spaces is to be specifically for females in the first place so it’s really not wrong for females to object to that being taken away, that’s a boundary that got crossed and we shouldn’t be vilified for objecting.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry I’ve been so slow to respond. Thank you for explaining!

What I mean is, TW wouldn’t be able to legally change their documents to state that they are women or female. I know that won’t stop some TW from calling themselves those words, but they wouldn’t be able to do it on legal documents and the rights of women would remain female specific (in this scenario “women” and “female” would be the new words, couldn’t think of any made up word lol).

All the words I thought of sounded silly lol. The legal sex change thing is such a sticky issue. I wish we could just go to a system where it wasn’t visible except in special circumstances where it was needed or something. It makes perfect sense to me why GC doesn’t want it to be possible. I can’t condemn it without being a horrible hypocrite though because I did it and it helped me (even though the barriers were more serious then, bottom surgery, etc.).

I disagree. I think it’s uncomfortable for TW to do because they don’t want to, but I don’t get why in theory it would be that difficult to clarify that you’re trans. I understand there are reasons for not wanting to, but I don’t think the idea of clarifying in and of itself is that difficult, when necessary.

I don’t think it’s uncomfortable just because of not wanting to do it (even though you are right that a lot of us don’t want to). It can also be emotionally difficult. Speaking for myself, it can bring up uncomfortable feelings because things were difficult for me as a child. It’s also hard if you aren’t naturally assertive because there isn’t a natural time to bring it up and people don’t expect it. It can be intimating for that reason too. It’s still something we have to do though.

But I when it comes to certain things- like a female specific job/opportunity, sports, dating, stuff like that- transparency should exist. That doesn’t mean every time someone approaches you you have to inform them that you’re trans, it means when it matters, you should be honest imo.

I agree with you for the most part of when it’s important to share. We might disagree about friends, but I think we agree everywhere else. You said in a previous conversation you would feel like your boundaries were violated if you were friends with someone you saw as a woman and later found out they were trans.

I just mean that to me, trans people are the ones who need to be aware of potential boundaries and navigate them.

I agree. I’m just hoping that there is a way we can do that a still be able to live good lives. Sometimes, I worry that we can make an effort, but we may overlook something and won’t be doing it well enough if we are someone who passes. I guess I feel like the subtext from GC sometimes is that it would be better if passing trans people weren’t a thing.

Or the bathroom/sex based spaces thing- gc gets attacked for wanting female spaces to remain female spaces- but the whole point of female spaces is to be specifically for females in the first place so it’s really not wrong for females to object to that being taken away, that’s a boundary that got crossed and we shouldn’t be vilified for objecting.

I’m sorry GC is vilified for standing up for females rights and spaces. I don’t want to do that and want to support you as best I can. I feel like as more people become aware of things that are happening there may be more questioning of the way “trans rights” are treated right now. At my company, for instance, women tend to be the most supportive of trans inclusion and having our company do things like stating our pronouns. I feel like they don’t recognize the potential harm for women of just accepting all this though.