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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

And the way society treats us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I don’t get treated like a transwoman tho. And transwomen who don’t pass for female don’t get treated like women so does that mean that only passing TW are women?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

They get treated more similar to natal women than to men. When you enforce a binary as you are attempting to do, it forces a polarization, on any metric but medical the grouping of natal women and trans women being separated from cis men and trans men makes the most sense.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You appear to be saying that if a disguise is effective, then it's no longer a disguise. By that logic trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton are women, but you reject that idea. Not only do you think Debbie isn't a woman, you don't even think she is trans. What if you are a GNC woman who keeps getting misgendered? Are you a man due to how "society treats you"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You appear to be saying that if a disguise is effective, then it's no longer a disguise.

That’s not what I said at all. I said that given the way humans live and our society operates there’s a need for categorization of natal women and trans women as a discreet group as well as a group that separates trans men from trans women and natal women.

By that logic trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton are women, but you reject that idea.

I’ve expressly said I would respect her pronouns but no I personally wouldn’t call her a trans woman (since she must not be dysphoric if she calls herself a man) so by my definition she would not be a trans woman and therefore not a woman, but I wouldn’t force someone else to identify themselves by my definition.

What if you are a GNC woman who keeps getting misgendered? Are you a man due to how "society treats you"?

If a natal woman isn’t trans she isn’t a man.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So now you are back-pedalling, since you have randomly decided that it's not based on treatment anymore.

I said that given the way humans live and our society operates there’s a need for categorization of natal women and trans women as a discreet group

How do you square that with still grouping Debbie Hayton in with men? Trans-womxyn have more in common with men like Debbie than they do with women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Hayton doesn’t have dysphoria. She’s essentially just a crossdresser as far as I’m concerned. But I also won’t hold her to my definition.

Regardless she’s still treated as lesser because she is at least seen as women like.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So it went from how society treats a trans-woman to whether she has dysphoria or not. Crossdressers are women according to your now seemingly abandoned metric. Even autogynaephiles have gender dysphoria though. Are they women too?

See how trying to force trans-womxyn into the woman category doesn't work? Conversely, they sit rather comfortably in the men category, due to all the overlap between them & gay men, crossdressers, femboys, autogynaephiles etc.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Cross dressers can take off clothes. Trans women can’t just undo hormones and go back and forth.

Even autogynaephiles have gender dysphoria though. Are they women too?

If they actually have dysphoria ( which isn’t true of most autogynephiles in my experience) and transition I would think so.

Trans women don’t fit in the man category at all. Our bodies aren’t like theirs. Our minds aren’t like theirs. Even our experiences pretransition aren’t the same because our minds are different. Nothing but a Y chromosome in common.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

trans-womxyn's bodies, minds, experiences fall within the range of variability exhibited by men, but not women