QT: Why are people not allowed to feel disappointed when someone transitions?

submitted by questioningtw from self.GCdebatesQT

For instance ?i do find it disturbing that so many gender non conforming women are coming out as non binary or trans men. I am especially disappointed that now Ellen Page is apparently a man. People whose kids transition are apparently never allowed to really be sad about this either. And before you compare it to being gay, it is completely different. Transitioning is literally becoming another person.

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[–]worried19 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Not QT, but it would be different if I believed it was coming from a healthy place. But looking at what's happening in society right now, I'm deeply disturbed. I have to admit I've really been struggling with this news. There's no space in society anymore for women like me. What's the point of trying to remain female? I feel like I should just give up and join them. Except I know it would be the wrong choice.

What I find more upsetting than any individual case is the way this movement insists on rewriting the past. The name Page's parents chose with love for her (and she was a her when she was a baby) is now a "deadname." It's not acceptable to use Page's original name even when talking about the time that she openly and proudly identified as a woman and a lesbian. We have to pretend that Page was always a man and never had any other name. It's just a level of insanity that I can't get behind.

I can't imagine it's healthy for trans people, either. To believe that you are "dead." That everything you were prior to yesterday is "dead." That you're literally a new person with a new sex. It's not logical. It makes zero sense. Transsexuality exists. I do believe that. However, it used to be extremely rare, especially in females, and manifested in early childhood. There is no precedent for what's happening now. I don't believe that Ellen Page as a 5 year old or a 10 year old hated her female body, that she loathed her vagina. If that was the case, there would have been some evidence of it before now.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If that was the case, there would have been some evidence of it before now.

Year ago she said she is proud to be a woman and that she want to play lesbian roles until her death. Then she changed her PR agency, and now she is he and a straight man, not a lesbian anymore. Very weird and very fast change.

To believe that you are "dead." That everything you were prior to yesterday is "dead."

It is very common practice in some protestant smaller churches. In a city I am living, around it there few villages, each have different protestant church (they are called "sects" here, tho).

People there are baptizing only around age of 25-30, sometimes later, after it, all their sins are "lifted away" (so there many criminals among youth there, as they believe they will be forgiven by God when time will come), and now they are accepted by God. They are taking new name, deadnaming considered as a sin as well, they are changing name in legal documents as well, and they are "starting completely new life", and often chosing new profession that pastor chosed for them. And gathering all together every sunday to discuss religion and praising newcommers for few months, giving them extra privileges for first time. Especially heavily it is practiced by Baptists.

So I can see such happening.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Makes sense. The religious comparison is apt. When people are born again, their old self is washed away. A lot of them consider themselves new people. They're "baby Christians," like they were reborn into Christianity.

But I think even if you asked a religious person, they'd still admit that they're not literally a new person. Just metaphorically.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some do believe they are completely new person. And in some communities, they act like "historically" they are new people too, as they "forgetting" their past and when anyone speaking about it - it is always like about some other person.

Most such religious practices by orthodox christians and atheists here are called "cults" and "sects". And I can't completely disagree.

[–]questioningtw[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree...the way she came out was really weird too, it felt like she was guilting people to basically accept her as a man who was always a man, when that is bullshit. She has been a female actor forever, and has been an out lesbian for a long time. Before yesterday her name WAS Ellen Page, Wikipedia rewriting her bio is frankly creepy. I am sorry, but I will never ever be one of those people that thinks just saying you are a man or woman makes you one. I also hate the deadname stuff....your past you was still the past you.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The letter was also extremely angry. There was zero talk about Page's gender journey. It seemed more like a political attack. I think Page probably saw the Keira Bell news and decided to lash out. The announcement came just an hour or two after Keira's win. I would guess Page had been planning an announcement anyway, but this was the trigger.

[–]questioningtw[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I do wonder about that. I think this is why it rubbed me the wrong way too. If she were to be like, hey I know you know me as Ellen, but please accept that I am Elliot, I think it wouldn't have been so offputting. Instead it was almost like how dare you see me as a woman, even though you have known me all along as a woman! It is honestly creepy how everyone is not seeing how weird this is.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think most people see. They're just scared to say anything. The majority of people still believe that biological sex is real and can't be changed by fiat.

[–]questioningtw[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

it is interesting how Reddit, Twitter and Wikipedia are just so cowed into submission.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's by design. I'm shocked such a small minority group has so much power over the mainstream media.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not acceptable to use Page's original name even when talking about the time that she openly and proudly identified as a woman and a lesbian.

I think the deadname thing is especially cumbersome when talking about a celebrity because their name is also their brand. People recognize the name "Ellen Page", we see that name in the credits of all their old movies. Erasing that name completely and replacing it with Elliot almost feels like rewriting history. Imo it shouldn't be a problem to use the name Ellen in proper context.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's like George Orwell level, for real. You can't just obliterate any trace of a person who existed. Ellen Page did exist. She was once a baby girl, then a little girl, then a teenage girl, then an adult woman. Elliot Page may no longer want to be known as female, but Page's past as a female person is a undeniable fact of history. It was even captured on film.

[–]grixitperson 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We have to pretend that Page was always a man and never had any other name. It's just a level of insanity that I can't get behind.

Then don't. And don't join in the confusion by conflating sex and gender. Page was born female, that's her sex. She can adopt whatever "gender" she likes, but that's just, as they say, "expression".

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I'm not going to. But I meant "we" as in society in general. We're being told that we have to do this, otherwise we're horrible bigots.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Page was one of few last young gender non-conforming women and, I think, last young popular lesbian in Hollywood. Page was so proud to be lesbian and gave courage for many women and even some men to fight homophobia back and be proud of their sexuality. And now Page is just a gender conforming straight man.

[–]questioningtw[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly., I feel like society is becoming more sexist honestly. I want to see more GNC women out there, not less.

[–]censorshipment 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not QT, but I "came out" as a guy (never called myself trans) after I came out as a lesbian, and my mom was devastated by the former because she literally wanted a clone of herself but wanted me to have a better life than she had as a little girl. She felt like she was a damaged/broken doll, and she wanted me to be a perfect doll. I consider her a narcissist because her disappointment was more about herself than about me.

I didn't transition. I suppose I am a "desister" since I only socially identified as a guy. Fortunately, I didn't ruin my body before realizing there's nothing wrong with me nor being female. I wanted to physically change to unlock (heterosexual) male privileges for myself. I didn't want to be a sexual minority as a homosexual female. I was tired of being told "I'd date you if you were a guy" (which I was recently told by a straight woman on Reddit before I was permanently suspended for "misandry"). A lot of straight women like my personality but not my body... and that fucking sucks... but fortunately, a lot of gay/bi women are attracted to me, so my dysphoria is dormant. A woman tells me I'm handsome almost daily (and I hate receiving compliments/validation... I just want women to want me intimately).

I do hate when trans people compare coming out as trans to coming out as gay, but I admit there is a similarity... you're "coming clean" about a very significant secret of yourself.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I’m not QT, but trans. I feel like people should be allowed to be disappointed or feel however they are going to feel. It is sad that those feelings aren’t allowed for often times.

I feel like it’s natural for parents to feel sad. I think I would really struggle with it if my child transitioned (even if I thought it was the right thing).

I don’t feel like you become another person. We’re still the same people. My mother once said something early on that she would miss insert Peaking’s birth name and it really broke my heart because I was right there and I hadn’t gone anywhere. I don’t know if other people feel differently, but I feel like I’m still that boy too. Those parts of your life are still a part of you even if they were hard.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s not like you died or disappeared. If transitioning literally erased your formative years and your memories you might be someone new. Idk that just sounds so painful to hear like..your core personality doesn’t go away if you take hormones or grow your hair long.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, we don’t die. I started crying when I heard my mother say that and couldn’t really get the words out to tell her I was still there. She started it crying too and we at least were together to comfort each other. The feelings for parents are hard (and my parents actually had agreed to medical treatment for me). She still felt like she was losing some part of the little boy she gave birth to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

My mother once said something early on that she would miss insert Peaking’s birth name and it really broke my heart because I was right there and I hadn’t gone anywhere.

I feel entirely different. I consider my pretransition self dead. It’s a costume I finally got to cast off and good riddance. I sincerely want people to completely separate me from that facade when they think of me.

I’m not saying you are wrong to feel how you do, just that I feel differently.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing! I feel like that’s such a harsh view to take though. 😟

Were you really different before?

I don’t feel like I was other than dealing with dysphoria making me anxious and depressed. After, I was still me, just happier and able to be comfortable. I was feminine though and couldn’t really pass for straight so maybe it wasn’t the same as for others.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was the same inside but no one knew me. They knew a front I was putting up because I knew no one would accept me if they knew the actual me.

Now I’m actually me and that facade is a distant memory I would just as soon have everyone forget.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Does the woman who gave birth to you believe you were just a facade before you transitioned? Did she gestate a phantasm and risk her life in childbirth for a mere illusion?

What age did you "transition" anyways?

Do all the adults who nurtured, rocked, fed, wiped your nose and butt, raised, comforted, soothed and taught you to the point in time you "transitioned" think that prior to that you were just a charade or a corpse?

Do all your peers who as kids your age played with you, and all the older kids who helped care for you and showed you the ropes, also think you were dead or not real back then?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Does the woman who gave birth to you believe you were just a facade before you transitioned? Did she gestate a phantasm and risk her life in childbirth for a mere illusion?

She seems to consider him essentially dead. She has refused to see me or hear my voice in seven years, since I informed her I would be transitioning.

What age did you "transition" anyways?

Hormones at I believe 27. I first tried dining out at 14 but experiences such a backlash that I went back into suppression and determined I would just tough it out.

That lead to long term issues and eventually it came to kill myself or transition because I couldn’t stand to live a lie anymore. I regret daily not fighting for it when I first tried. The price for my cowardice is the body of a monster. Though that’s more than you asked for.

Do all the adults who nurtured, rocked, fed, wiped your nose and butt, raised, comforted, soothed and taught you to the point in time you "transitioned" think that prior to that you were just a charade or a corpse?

Apparently. My father hasn’t had any contact in 7 years and my mother only communicates via text and obviously without any love. The Aunt that watched me every day as a young child passed before she could know the real me sadly, but I like to think she would have been been accepting.

Do all your peers who as kids your age played with you, and all the older kids who helped care for you and showed you the ropes, also think you were dead or not real back then?

Again by and large yes. I am still in contact with perhaps 3 people from high school even irregularly. And 2 of them have become substantially more distant than before I transitioned.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (17 children)

Because it's not about you. Their lifestyle, their bodies, their choice. Also, GC's tone sounds like they're trying to guilt trans men about transitioning. I don't know if that’s their intention, but that's how it comes across. My family was against me going on anti-depressants, and stated their feelings openly. While they were entitled to their feelings, that will not affect my medical decisions and if they continued to tell me they disapproved of my decision, I would have cut contact with them.

There is another interesting about GC. When trans women are celebrities, GC complains only trans women are getting attention over trans men, like in this thread. So you'd think they'd be happy "finally trans men are getting attention instead of trans women" but nope. To me it seems like when GC says trans men get more attention than trans women, they essentially are complaining males are getting all the attention (they view trans women as men). They are not saying this out of a genuine desire to have more trans men in public positions like acting and political roles. GC is anti-trans.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

You've apparently confused pointing out that the dynamic between transmen and transwomen correlates with sex and not gender identity with 'complaining'. I genuinely don't know how you read that thread and concluded that the women weighing in were complaining that transmen hadn't been elected, that the general sentiment was 'more transmen in politics!' and not 'males have privilege over females regardless of how either identifies'.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If gender identity doesn't matter to GC, then why not compare trans women and cis males to cis women? If the point is natal males have male privilege over natal females, then why not compare those groups regardless of gender identity? The highest paid teen actresses in the early decade were female (i.e. Miley Cyrus, Miranda Cosgrove, Demi Lovato, Selena Gomez). Does it matter if they're trans? If you're going to talk about trans men not being represented in the public sphere, then you should support trans men in these positions. Otherwise, leave trans men out of the conversation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The highest paid teen actresses in the early decade were female

Until two seconds ago, the word "actress" meant someone who is female. So I don't get your point.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

why not compare trans women and cis males to cis women?

Gender critical people compare transwomen and other males to females in general constantly. Constantly.

The highest paid teen actresses in the early decade were female

I don't know what this has to do with anything.

If you're going to talk about trans men not being represented in the public sphere, then you should support trans men in these positions.

Again, you don't understand why gender critical people are pointing out/criticising the dynamic between transmen and transwomen if this is your takeaway.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Again, you don't understand why gender critical people are pointing out/criticising the dynamic between transmen and transwomen if this is your takeaway.

I do understand why GC is pointing out this dynamic. I just don't think it's GC's place to point out this dynamic because they themselves have a sentiment against trans men.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Of course we don’t want trans men getting more limelight. That doesn’t make it weird to be disappointed when men are given women’s roles or spaces lmao. You make the most ridiculous jumps to horn in your little “gs hates trans” thing into any and every conversation.

Why would any gc person want more transmen getting attention? Do you even know what gender critical is?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I didn't say GCs hate trans, I said GCs are anti-trans, meaning they espouse an anti-trans sentiment frequently seen in Ovarit and other GC communities. Being upset there are trans men celebrities is one example.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Righto. I get ya.

So lesbians shouldn’t be disappointed that a proud lesbian has now stated they are a man not a lesbian? Is it really anti trans to be saddened by the loss of a well known visible figure who succeeded as a lesbian?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Maybe she wasn't a proud lesbian? Maybe she always felt like a man internally and just came out? Maybe she will be happier as a man? Though to an extent the sadness is understandable since she was one of the few prominent lesbians. I hope there are more prominent gays, lesbians and trans men in the coming years.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So we should ignore her saying she’s proud to be a lesbian because maybe it was a lie?

Why is her identity as a man correct but her being a lesbian is wrong? What if she says she’s a lesbian again in a few years? Does that become correct again?

Her being happier as a man isn’t relevant to someone being dissapointed to lose a prominent lesbian role model.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It's OK to be disappointed at losing a prominent lesbian role model. However, the Ovarit comments go beyond that. They are literally guilting him for being trans and many comments are openly transphobic. There are a few threads on Ovarit about Elliot Page. Let me give examples from this thread which has 385 comments.

This is literal conversion therapy.

I hate letting this stuff get to me in real life but this fucking stings. her talking about finding her "authentic self" while rejecting her womanhood and lesbianism and sending a harmful, incorrect message to young lesbians/gnc girls that you cannot just be gnc, you must be trans or nonbinary or just other - anything other than the shame of being a lesbian woman, let alone a gender nonconforming one. and still, despite this terrible message she's sending, i feel so sorry for her too for falling victim to this homophobic, misogynistic cult.

Oh look, another Hollywood narcissist advancing their career. What a good fit for the TRA narcissists. In fact, they’re perfect for each other. How stunning and brave™️

People know a stunt when they see one.

I’m cancelling Netflix.

It's distressing that someone so talented beautiful and successful can also be so obviously a mental case.

"Hate" here being a word describing sadness from women and mostly lesbians who are shattered by her deeply misogynistic and lesbophobic move.

People are dying around the world from COVID, infection and death rates are spiking in US, but let's worry about pronouns and your gender identity. Yep, priorities.

It's interesting all the way on the way bottom a user wrote "The response to this is making me sad and another time when I can see why people assume we’re all hateful bigots. I thought we acknowledged that gender disphoria is a real disorder that sometimes requires transition as treatment while maintaining that biological sex is a constant and sex-exclusive spaces should be respected." This person got downvoted and one user even replied "Gender dysphoria my whole ass."

Dysphoria is when your brain tells you you're meant to be another sex. I am a woman who was born female. The idea of me being mail recoils me. If I was born male, I would transition. That's the downside of being trans, extreme body modification. But I understand why people do it and I would do it to if I had dysphoria. I know GC says all women feel discomfort with their body. I did too at one point but I never had dysphoria. That's something totally different and currently the best treatment is transition. But most GCs don't believe in dysphoria, or gender identity so this might be a hard thing for many to understand.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

We believe on dysphoria, just not that anyone else should be expected to cater to ones dysphoria.

It’s not hard to understand at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

But there are MANY examples of posts where GC outright says or implies dysphoria doesn't exist.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just curious-- do you have any examples?

I ask because while I agree with many GC ideas and am against gender ideology, I don't participate in GC communities or describe myself as GC for the reason that they can sometimes be dismissive towards mentally ill people (among others).

[–]yousaythosethings 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I will say is that I believe that gender dysphoria is real and is something very commonly felt by LGB people. That being said, it has been defined in the DSM V way too broadly, which is going to draw a lot of criticism naturally. Pretty much to the point that “if gay, then dysphoric.” I also think the current state of gender activism and encourage people to a actively think about their gender and whether they’re really men or really women creates its own type of dysphoria.

I also think with Ellen Page there is evidence that gender dysphoria was not the main or only cause of her new claiming a NB/trans identity. She is most certainly having some kid of mental breakdown and seems to be surrounded by vultures who are using her and creating or contributing to dysphoria.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

It’s not becoming a different person at all. And sorry but if it’s okay to be disappointed someone’s transitioning then it’s okay to be disappointed that someone’s gay

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s not becoming a different person at all.

does "transitioning" even mean anything then? If you're the same as you ever were, why change your name or your pronouns or get upset when people refer to things that you used to allow them to refer to?

For everyone else at very least, that's who you used to be - and if you're honest with yourself, for at least some of that time you hadn't figured out this new persona yet so maybe you were more confused than you showed, but "that person" was who you thought you were. Why destroy the past so aggressively?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

WhoI am at my core is my personality and memories, not the aesthetics of my appearance or the labels used to describe me. The point of transition isn’t to become someone else, but to relieve pain

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because that wasn’t us. At least a not for many of us. That was okay acting at what a man is supposed to be because we knew we couldn’t be who we were. I can’t speak to anyone else but for me anyway.

Like I said above. They didn’t know me because I knew I couldn’t let them. Like the people who knew me in high school knew me as a jock who started a bunch of fights with guys all the time and wouldn’t let anyone challenge their masculinity (though they did all think I was gay). That was a front.

I’m not that person and I don’t want to be compared to them.

[–]PassionateIntensity 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's Ellen's life and she can do whatever she wants but yeah I'm disappointed. I think it sends a terrible message to baby lesbians.

I'm just sorta confused regarding the "believe what people tell you" thing because am I supposed to believe Ellen was never a lesbian? She was born trans and lied or was confused about being a lesbian (even though questioning gay people's declared sexuality is taboo). It's a contradictory mess.

[–]questioningtw[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This! This is what bugs me. And also why this "you are so stunning and brave" sound so fake. So all these years saying she was a lesbian and playing women characters was a lie then? Why are you coming out with this NOW, when you already have a role as a woman on a tv show? I feel bad for saying this, but right now I don't see her as a man at all.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Imo, its okay to feel disappointed or sad. People aren't robots, we can't control our feelings. What you do with those feelings is what matters.

I don't agree with the stuff some GC people are saying about Page, but I do think there is a discussion to be had about how gnc and lesbian women are being pressured to identify out of womanhood. However, I wouldn't dare place that judgement on Page. I don't know anything about them, it wouldn't be fair for me to speculate. Not to mention its none of my business.

[–]questioningtw[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was really, really disappointed when Page announced that and was kind of ashamed of myself for it. I was so happy to see a woman that actually wore no make up and was fairly unfeminine in movies. Plus, the whole I am a guy now, see me as that despite seeing me as a woman for years really annoyed me. I think I am just really tired of femininity in general....or at least this femininity that the media promotes.

[–]FlanJam 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's understandable. I'm not a fan anymore (for different reasons), but I used to like Page because I thought they were one of the few lesbians in Hollywood that was likeable. Its kinda funny how there used to be 2 lesbian Ellens, now there's only 1 and she turned out to be an ass. But what can you do, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Transition is good news. It’s someone being themselves and doing what they need to stop hurting. And yes, despite your belief to the contrary, it’s essentially the same as someone coming out of the closet as gay. It’s a good thing that for them that they are out.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

It's complicated. My sentiment toward my old self is that he is dead. Shouldn't have existed in the first place and only came to be because a little kid was too afraid to speak up.

I can understand why someone I knew before I transitioned would be disappointed. But I don't care and if they express that feeling towards me, then yes I am offended. My life has nothing to do with you and I don't owe you any say in it. Because you obviously don't know me well enough that you should. That beeing said I don't think that I have changed that much. Or at least not more than cis people change over the years. Keep in mind that that my perspective on my transition.

In general I think it's okay to feel what you feel. But before you express those feelings to someone you might want to ask yourself if you're actually close enough to the person who wants to transition to have any say in it.

[–]questioningtw[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Oh I would never actually express my feelings and keep quite. I guess I just find the whole concept of people having to transition depressing. Like, it sucks we live in such a sexist society that people feel they need to transition to be happy.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

The thing is, that its not a sexist society that makes me want to transition. Not sure if you know the WEBTOON fluidum. Even if we lived in a society like that, I'd still want to transition [if the body thing wasn't in that comic]

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Even if we lived in a society like that, I'd still want to transition

I feel like none of us can know that. We can guess how we would have been in a different society, but I just don’t see how we can know when we’re exposed to gender so early.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My transition isn't motivated by gender though. When I first wanted to transition I was still naive enough to assume that gender didn't matter.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m just not sure how good any of us are at objectively understanding our own motivations, especially if they go back to when we were little. The mind is complicated.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe it's easier for me since I have never stopped thinking these thoughts and my "role model" if you can call it that, never really changed. But I agree that there is no objective understanding here. Internal stuff like motivation will always be subjective.

[–]questioningtw[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nope, is it SFW?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. Absolutely.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do you really think transition is because of social pressures? Doesn’t that ignore dysphoria?

[–]questioningtw[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think sometimes dysphoria can be from social pressures? I have seen questions on askfeminists ask that.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t think so. At least not body dysphoria. I can’t even entertain the idea that Toxic masculinity made me hate my genitals or flat chest.