all 16 comments

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

“she was a member of a community…for whom suicide attempts outpace the national average almost 26 times over.”

29.9% of trans-womxyn students report having attempted suicide, vs 14% of students in general. That's twice (2x) as many, not 26x. No idea how they came by that number.

source:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/4/e20174218?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

Outing a trans person is as unethical as outing a gay person, no more, no less; their actual crimes ought to be treated separately.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

So I don't think that analogy quite holds.

I feel a better analogy would be if I, a woman, married another woman, and we lived together w/e for 15 years. I decide I'm straight, break up with her, marry a man, have kids, etc. and someone does an expose about my... 15 years as a lesbian? Or maybe vice versa, I was married to a man for 15 years, had some kids, got married to a woman, and people threatened my heterosexual history? Either way, seems kind of weird no? Dr. V lived 'as a man' for a very, very long time. I don't believe in history erasure.

What would you say if I had claimed I was a German citizen, but actually was just an American my whole life? Esp if I built a brand on "being German" ?

Also how many of those TWXNs had other comorbidities, and what was the suicide attempt rate of students with same conditions who were otherwise not-trans? (I'm guessing the study doesn't touch that).

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I totally see what you're saying & would likely agree with you. I just didn't take the time to read the original article.

and what was the suicide attempt rate of students with same conditions who were otherwise not-trans?

Yes! This! I wish this information existed. These kinds of stats should be comparing like with like, that way they'd likely find that it's non-conformity that is the commonality within populations most susceptible to suicide ideation.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"people with mental illnesses have elevated rates of suicide, oh and also trans people because that's not a mental illness, oh also veterinarians off theirselves like whoa. There's an epidemic of veterinarian suicides."

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh wow! That was a such a crazy story!

I’m not sure how instructive it is for journalists and trans people in general because this person was clearly a con-man and lying about all sorts of things. I feel like in a situation where a reporter just ran across something that outed someone who wasn’t otherwise being dishonest maybe they should talk to the person and consider their feelings about it more. That said, I feel like if you’ve lived your life as a man, I’m not sure if it’s reasonable to expect that to be just erased. I feel, if you are stealth, it’s up to you to think about that as you move through life. Like, if I ever became interesting enough to where someone wanted to research me to tell my story, I’d have to be okay with potentially being outed (even though it’s possible it wouldn’t because there isn’t so much there since it was only as a child). But, I wouldn’t make choices that would get me that level of attention because I don’t want that. I think about NikkieTutorials sometimes and I feel like getting too much attention can make it where people will want to do out you. Nikkie handled it the right way, but it’s tough to be put in that position.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yeah if this person had a similar history to you, it likely never would have come out that they were trans, because it just wasn't relevant to the story. As I indicated, this story would hav ebeen almost identical had they just changed their name and taken on a new non-trans identity, instead claimed they were a German engineer or something like that. The reported just would hav ebeen like "It turns out Hans Zimmergberg, German BMW CTO, was actually just John Murry, who had reinvented himself with a new life as an eccentric....." blah blah blah.

re: Nikki, weren't they like stealth to their fiancé or something?

Again I doubt you would have been "outed" as trans if this comparable story was about you.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Your analogy makes sense. They were super dishonest about nearly everything.

re: Nikki, weren't they like stealth to their fiancé or something?

They were sexual active with their fiancé before they told him they were trans. That is wrong obviously, but I’m a little sympathetic because I understand how it could happen. We can be in a difficult spot with guys.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Haha I'm glad it makes sense - re: "They were sexual active with their fiancé before they told him they were trans. That is wrong obviously, but I’m a little sympathetic because I understand how it could happen. We can be in a difficult spot with guys."

I'm gonna call BS on this - what does a middle+ class 6'4"ish 250 lb-ish person have to worry about being in a room alone with anyone? Esp in the Netherlands / Western Europe - also no one "owes" anyone sex. What was pressuring Nikki to have sex with someone without saying "BTW...." ?

I some how manage to tell anyone I'm a sex worker before being intimate with them, and US sex workers have shorter life spans than Brazilian transsexuals, believe it or not (approximately 32 years of age) what's Nikki's excuse?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I agree that it's wrong there isn't an excuse for it. It's just difficult and I feel like sometimes people don't appreciate that. You have lots of experience with disclosure so I won't try to say I know better, but it can be really intimidating especially when you know they are not at all prepared for it. Maybe it's not perfectly rational, idk. I'm just not willing to say someone is automatically terrible if they don't do it when they should. I don't know all the details about Nikkie and how long their relationship went on before disclosing.

I had forgotten how big they were. My life experience is as a 5'4"ish 115ish person so that would be different Nikkie's and could affect how I see it.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mean being rejected sucks. And while I'm not going to say I 'totally know what it's like to be a stealth utr tw,' I have had situations where people think I'm a tw, where I have to deal with a guy flipping out in a bedroom because he thinks I'm a trap and lied, etc. so like, I'm probably pretty damn close and probably have more "trans" analogous experiences where I am seen as trans, than some trans people. This also makes me think that a lot of TRAs are causing a good deal of material harm to trans people by making it out to be some sort of life threatening condition when, from what I understand once you control for poverty, class, etc. "being trans," is not generally more, and likely less, dangerous than being a woman, but I can go on twitter and see a 19 yr old trans person saying they can't get in a cab because it could be a death sentence - and I feel some of that may have trickled into your beliefs. Yes a 5'4" person will need to consider things differently than a 6'4" person. But there are very few males who are 5'4", there are a lot of women who are (it's the tall side of the average woman's height) - and even then - the average predator (hypothetically violent man) won't get into a bout with prey that can injure him - which a 5'4" man often can.

But also I don't think TWs realize the extent to which many women go to avoid male violence - you may, as a smol - but you may be attributing the threat to your transness, not to your female appearing-ness (and yes you're thoroughly emasculated, that's a thing).

ANYWAY - TLDR - good relationships require vulnerability, and to connect with people requires an amount of it, and if one isn't ready for that one should reconsider whether or not they're ready to be intimate.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel like you are assuming I'm thinking the way I am for the wrong reasons. In regular life, I'm sure you dealt with transness more than I have for social interactions based on how you've described yourself so maybe I should just defer to you in general. I have about the least trans life a trans person can have. I feel like if my thoughts about it aren't rational sometimes its probably because I've built it up from being stealth for so long. If you go through life not talking about something, I feel like your mind gives it importance that maybe it doesn't deserve.

But also I don't think TWs realize the extent to which many women go to avoid male violence - you may, as a smol - but you may be attributing the threat to your transness, not to your female appearing-ness (and yes you're thoroughly emasculated, that's a thing).

On this, I can promise you this isn't my view. The things I've had to go through in my life because of female appearing-ness is so much more than because of transness. It isn't remotely close.

ANYWAY - TLDR - good relationships require vulnerability, and to connect with people requires an amount of it, and if one isn't ready for that one should reconsider whether or not they're ready to be intimate.

Totally agree. I've been in the position many times of not being ready to tell someone and just stopping things for that reason and they wouldn't know why. That is a better thing to do if you aren't ready, but it emotional and I can understand someone taking the easy way out (even though they shouldn't).

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean I don't know how or why you think the way you do - you do seem to believe that "transwomen" face undue risk of threat or violence based on their being trans - but it's not entirely clear you do, that's just a tone your messages have indicating that you understand why a TW would feel like they had to lie about their sex (I also understand why they feel like they have to lie, I just think it's bunk.. Just like I understand why a man feels like he needs to kill his mistress lest his wife find out and his life "be destroyed." )

Anyway - it sounds like we're on the same page, people shouldn't hide certain stuff in certain situations, sometimes they do, there are other cases where it may not have been relevant to talk about how this apparent women lived as a man most of their life, this one it kind of was.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A journalist's duty used to be to tell who, what, where, why, when. There have always been different standards about protecting privacy that depend on the extent to which the person being reported on is or is not a public figure, and whether they became a public figure through their own intentional actions or by accident.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This one is interesting in so much that Stephen / V was selling a story, and I think it's fair that people know the "real story," and that "real story," involves that for most of their life during the alleged story, they were someone else.. One could argue that the only thing that is relevant is that they "weren't that thing," at which point why does it matter that they were a mechanic, or lost a court case to the city, etc.

I am curious what's up with the Dan Quayle phone call, I wonder if the infomercial guy was in on it to an extent and had been lying - or why SteVe was in a court case with the city.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Someone asked me my thoughts on 5 - so here it is - That's one of the "weaker" ones I feel. So maybe an easier answer? IIRC GReatland was / is a longform journalism website - It was a great piece of longform journalism - a really interesting story and some good work done effectively on a con-person.

I think stories of the journalist, Caleb, "makign it" about Steve / Dr. V being trans/a man are greatly overexaggerated. I think he handled it very well, which was respecting Steve / V's contemporary identity, without erasing the past, and it wasn't "about" that so much as it was impossible to tell SteVe's story without it - and I think they did so quite well.

SO - Greatland's "pressure" was that they likely invested in this article, that was within line of their body of work / goals / purpose. I don't see any particular bias or anything - that indicates that they had any particular feelings on trans people, which I don't see anything really in the article. Nor the overall Greatland body of work, which I believe had at least one trans person on staff. Which, esp in 2014, means the writing staff was quite possibly disproportionately trans.

[–]grixitperson 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He made claims, some of them were false. It is reasonable for a journalist to report this. It no more wrong to mention someone being a transsexual as it is for them to mention any other aspects of theirs. There's no ethical question here.