QT: What do you think about the AGP model and posts that are documented in itsafetish?

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GCdebatesQT)

This is one of the bigger things that bugs me about the QT community. I don't see much acknowledgement of AGP, I think because AGP doesn't fit the "trans women are women" tagline very well. Is it well known or acknowledged at all? I've seen how some TRAs interpret it, there's complete denial, the gender euphoria argument, it's a closeted behavior, etc. But I'm more interested in those that aren't directly affected, ie QT/NB types that aren't MTF trans themselves.

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[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A lot of serial killers were cross-dressers and were calling themselves women for sexual pleasure.

Previously transgender people were only ones with heavy gender dysphoria or transsexuals after surgeries.

Nowadays transgender person is anyone who claims they are and it includes majority of cross-dressers. And it is very shameful to accept for many activists that yes - those people were trans as well (even courts are demanding rape victims to call their cross-dresser rapists as "she").

gender euphoria

This thing is on itself is a fetish. No man or woman is walking around orgasming that they are born man or woman.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What percentage of crossdressers do you think are serial killers?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It is same question about "what percentage of men are rapists?" or "how many men with van are paedo, stealing children?". Not all men are rapists, but almost all rapists are men (from 98% to 100%, depending on country). That is why there is need to be safeguarding.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The people who start talking about cross dressers as serial killers think crossdressers are more likely to be serial killers. They do not like crossdressers.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m not QT, but I am trans. It may be difficult to find QT/NB types to answer. I feel like everyone here is at least like transmed.

AGP is obviously real. I feel like anyone with any experience in trans communities has seen it. I wasn’t aware of it when I was younger, but once I discovered it it explained a lot of people I had met.

It’s tough to get AGPs to acknowledge it though because it stigmatized and having AGP makes them form emotional attachments to the idea of being a real woman somehow and if they acknowledge their AGP, it means that they’re not. They will come up with all sorts of way to rationalize it away. I don’t really try to label people because that usually just upsets them, but it’s usually something you can pick up on easily (there really is like a type).

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

having AGP makes them form emotional attachments to the idea of being a real woman somehow and if they acknowledge their AGP, it means that they’re not.

This is really insightful and explains a lot, thanks.

I feel like everyone here is at least like transmed.

While I'm glad of this, it's something that I'd like to understand better. From what I can see, the transmedicalist view is on the basis of the dysphoria first and foremost? Is this correct? I've seen self-admitted AGPs on askAGP expressing that they have severe dysphoria. According to them, AGP can cause dysphoria that is severe enough that people want to transition and it sometimes provides genuine relief. Of course, this is self-admitted, and many of the types that seem to wreak havoc are emotionally tied to not admitting it (as you say.)

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, transmedicalism says you can't be trans if you don't have dysphoria. AGPs say they have dysphoria from being AGP, but I don't know if transmeds agree on whether that is valid or not. Anecdotally, I feel like AGPs who admit their AGP seem to be more considerate and less prone to hurt others (like you say). I feel like ending self-ID and having more gatekeeping might reduce the numbers of AGPs who transition or maybe AGPs could be taught to deal with it some other way. I really do worry about safety because some AGPs are predatory letting them transition puts women and trans people in harms way. I feel like there are no easy answers. :(

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I think it’s probably a thing that exists in some small number of people but Blanchard’s science was an absolute mess.

He says there’s no such thing as a bisexual or asexual trans person for one, going so far as to essentially accuse bi trans women of just self deluding that they are bi because they are really not attracted to men. It’s openly and painfully biphobic. He universalizes agp onto all non-exclusively male attracted trans women with really no basis. He says anyone who doesn’t match his theory is just lying. It’s just bad science.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

But what about the people posting the content of those subs? There’s plenty of people who do match the typology almost perfectly.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I said some agp people probably exist, my issue is with the universalization and bad science not the idea that some people are agp.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I’m asking what to do about them, and about why they are so often treated like it’s three guys doing it not thousands. Why do you think it’s not addressed by activists?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Let them transition I guess. Like I’m pro body autonomy so I can’t think of why they shouldn’t be allowed to change their bodies. Legal stuff, I don’t know. It would be difficult to parse them from normal trans people legally so I don’t know what the right approach would be.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Should it be addressed by transgender activists or should there be some effort made to seperate them from people like yourself who suffer dysphoria?

How do we protect women from the agp people?

I’m not trying to pick anything apart, I’m genuinely curious about how you feel about these people. To me it seems like they’re harmful to dysphoric transgender people as well as women. Do you get frustrated by them being so loud?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I do get a little frustrated espescially as they just become ammunition for people arguing against our rights but I can’t think of an argument against them transitoning that wouldn’t clash with valuing bodily autonomy.

I don’t know how to easily disntinguish between us in the world unfortunately.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The things you've said have been really vague and general so far, so I think we should try to define things a bit more. Just so we have a baseline we agree on. For trans rights, what rights specifically are you talking about? Because if you're saying that transitioning should be covered by insurance, the existence of people doing it for fetish reasons seems like a decent counterargument. Self-ID too. Is there a right I'm missing?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Protections generally are top priority. Job protections. Housing and medical discrimination protections.

Beyond that it would include insurance being covered by insurance, since it is absolutely necessary care and the accepted standard of care for dysphoria. But even now to get surgery covered by insurance requires letters from multiple mental health professionals confirming the need and approval by an analysis pannel so I don’t see why that would change. I was more than 5 years on hormones and it still was a six month process to get my insurance company to do partial coverage.

There’s also the question of facilities. Whether that be access based on birth, identity, surigical status, or creating safe and adequate alternatives. The examples trotted out by the anti trans firebrands are agp isolated wrongdoers generally which hurts normal trans people of course.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The examples trotted out by the anti trans firebrands are agp isolated wrongdoers generally which hurts normal trans people of course.

A lot of your argument hinge on AGPs being a small amount of people who have nothing to do with 'normal trans people' and only consider the effects of that on other trans people, not the general public. The issue with Karen White isn't only that 'she' is an AGP or bad actor making trans people look bad. There are actual ramifications to allowing a rapist into a women's prisons. I'm reminded of the people who defended the 'A rape at UVA' story to the bitter end because questioning the story would make it harder for sexual assault victims to come forward, as if there weren't a whole bunch of people being falsely accused of a terrible crime that they did not commit. The act of fraudulently inventing a rape is what makes it harder for sexual assault victims to come forward, not people's correct perception that said story is fraudulent.

As for there being only a small amount of AGPs, this poll in MtF suggests 80% of respondents have/had a body swap transformation fetish. Obviously, this isn't a scientific study and we can't verify the data. But these and other posts documented in itsafetish don't make it appear that this is a minority of trans people. It's not necessarily the posts themselves so much as the general approval of such posts, again not an empirical indicator but a suggestion that this is not a separate minority. The new itsafetish doesn't have as much content as the old one, but over time trends can be seen of what should be 'fringe agp behavior' firmly entrenched in the trans community. From my perspective anyways.

Some comments on the poll: "I spent a long time in the "it's probably just a fetish" camp." - 231 points

"Oh I'm glad I'm not alone... XD that was one of the things that made me accept I am trans. I kept going to websites with trans erotica pretty much every day, finally I realized there was a pretty good reason for that... :3" - 53 points

Beyond that it would include insurance being covered by insurance, since it is absolutely necessary care and the accepted standard of care for dysphoria.

You just said that it is not easy to distinguish between an AGP and a normal trans person. How can a surgery or medication be absolutely necessary if for some people who want it, it isn't, and we can't distinguish between the people for which it's necessary and the people for which it's not? This does not even factor in the QT "no dysphoria to be trans" camp like with this 4.2k upvote post in egg_irl or the fact that ROGDs can have genuine dysphoria that isn't best addressed through transitioning.

eta: not sure how to make the np links work, sorry if they don't.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And if anyone has not seen it, I recommend Contrapoints' YouTube video on AGP. A must-watch in my view.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That video has a lot of problems.

https://surveyanon.wordpress.com/2019/01/26/response-to-contrapoints-on-autogynephilia/

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think AGP is fundamentally flawed because it confuses cause and effect: the feelings of trans people seem to be explained better as gender euphoria than a paraphilia because trans identity remains in the absence of arousal.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why don’t HSTS experience gender euphoria? If it’s just caused by being trans, we should experience it too.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you talking about when an individual is aroused by cross-dressing or doing their makeup, that this is gender euphoria? I don't believe all trans people are AGP. I think the phrase may be sometimes used for genuinely 'gender affirming' situations, but is more often a euphemism for arousal, but I understand that people have different definitions and I don't want to assume our definitions are the same. I've seen cases of questioning people asking if they are trans when they are only interested in being trans when aroused, but those were on the old itsafetish reddit and it's not fair to mention that without solid posts to point to. I'll look if I can see any. As I have said, it's not that people are asking, but that the responses are often that this person is still trans.

As for the contrapoints video, I haven't watched it, although I understand that the idea is that it's a workaround for repressed trans identity, right? I may watch it but I prefer to read articles as I generally look at this stuff as I'm winding down before bed. So videos often aren't my go-to.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I still think AGP is a bit wonky and ultimately the science will move on.

I think gender variance has a dynamic effect.

It's also very essentialist, which makes for it odd to be championed by radical feminists.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Could you elaborate on all of your points please? What do you mean by wonky and what do you mean by a 'dynamic effect?' I want to understand better.

By essentialist do you mean it is based on male biology? I'm not a radical or GC feminist and I don't believe gender is entirely or even largely socialized (how much is probably impossible to tell though), so if my understanding is right that would be something for other people in this sub to defend.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sure. I mean that variation in gendered behaviour creates the behaviours we see.

It's like "attraction to men," androphilia.

Both men and women can express androphilia. I think that's natural. I think the trigger is likely the same in both sexes. There is not a magical biological gay circuit. It is cross gendered behaviour. However on average it is expressed in different ways.

For instance men use more visual porn and are more objectifying of the male form than androphilic women. Is that cultural? I guess radical feminists would say that is because men are brought up like that and expressing the same attitudes about men. But it seems such a consistent repeating pattern of a frequently supressed attraction I find that hard to believe.

To me it is that male sexuality directed towards males is more likely produces a particular form of sexuality. That's the dynamic aspect.

Yes women can express something very similar, but it is rarer.

I think there maybe something similar going on with crossdressers. To me it makes more sense than just-so stories for every different example of gender variant behaviour or the entirely socially constructed form.

But this doesn't resolve policy questions.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Men use more visual and explicit porn in general though. My understanding is that they are more visually connected to their sexuality and sexual interests than females are (generally.) So this says to me it's biological, not cultural. Wouldn't the question be if androphilic men use more visual porn and are more objectifying of their desired sex than gynephilic men? There's the behavior (androphilia) and there's the biological system it's plugged into - one being a female body and one being a male body, with their differences in sex drive, number of partners desired, and age-based "sexual market value" which is an awful term but one I find to be useful, sadly.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men use more visual and explicit porn in general though. My understanding is that they are more visually connected to their sexuality and sexual interests than females are (generally.) So this says to me it's biological, not cultural.

Well sure. That's what I think might be going on. That dynamic effect creates a male androphilia on average not quite like the androphilia that appears in women, on average.

Wouldn't the question be if androphilic men use more visual porn and are more objectifying of their desired sex than gynephilic men?

I'm not sure what you mean there?

There's the behavior (androphilia)

Which is natural.

and there's the biological system it's plugged into - one being a female body and one being a male body, with their differences in sex drive, number of partners desired, and age-based "sexual market value" which is an awful term but one I find to be useful, sadly.

Sure. Perhaps all the attributes that are described as different between sexual behaviour differences between men and women could be reduced to "drive." I'm not sure. If I'm going to be essentialist I think I try to reduce the qualities in number. But other attributes certainly seem independent and important.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They're trying to make it look like most trans women (and in some cases, trans men) are perverted when most aren't.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I asked about the content seen in the subreddit, not the reasons for which people are posting it. Any thoughts on that? In my experience, posters generally take the time to verify that the content isn't a troll or provocateur.