Discuss with just facts?

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Of course.

Such beliefs are homophobic and opening arms for homophobic conservatives, as they are supporting the very conservative claim that homosexuality is just a preference and genital fetish. Which is not true.

Homosexuality (and any sexuality) is not something we can chose, not something we can change or "unlearn". It is same as being born tall, or with red hair, or with any color skin. It is not something that you can identify into by making some cosmetic changes to yourself.

Same with arousal and attraction, even if we (lesbians) will really want to be aroused by TW, our body will not respond, even if we really like them as a person and had a good date and TW is very well passing. It just will not happen, body will not respond and that is it. And there no way to make body respond. So it is just not working concept.

Concepts like "everyone is bisexual just don't know it" are lies as well. Sexuality - is just biological reality, and that is it.

Word "sapphic" was appropriated from being synonymous to lesbian to mean loving women while being anyone. So TW can use it instead of calling themselves "lesbians", because they are not lesbians and can never be, same as women attracted and aroused by them are bisexual or straight, and never can be lesbians either. So calling them "sapphic" is decently good solution as for me.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Homosexuality (and any sexuality except bisexuality) is not something we can chose, not something we can change or "unlearn".

Hold up, you think bisexuality is a choice?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I meant they can chose between men and women to date. I worded it poorly, yeah. Thank you for noticing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (35 children)

Homosexuality (and any sexuality) is not something we can chose, not something we can change or "unlearn". It is same as being born tall, or with red hair, or with any color skin. It is not something that you can identify into by making some cosmetic changes to yourself.

Is there evidence for that? I've struggled with my sexuality and found no research to support sexuality is innate. I know we needed that conversation in the 80s and 90s to combat the religious persecution of homosexuality, but it's time to be honest - the data isn't there to support it.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Ah yes, it is just homosexuals in Iran are masochists and do not want to change sexuality even in fear of death.

There nothing bad or weird in bisexuality to accept it.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (33 children)

Yes, I understand as I'm a member of this community who has deeply struggled with my sexuality. But there isn't evidence to support sexuality is innate. I'd like to see it instead of a lazy emotional appeal.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

How and why did you struggle with your sexuality if it’s not innate?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

Because I can't tell if I am attracted to women or live in a society with a hyper focus on sexualizing women which is socialization that all women get in addition to men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

So why aren’t all people attracted to women?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

The majority of men are. Women are more likely to be bisexual it's now 13%, up from 2% just a decade or so agoor say, "everyone's a little bi." Plus, many women are still raised in cultures, even in the U.S. where there's a deep chance of social rejection for acknowledging same-sex attraction. Those who are raised more open but marry men are less likely to claim the identity, (because it is an identity) because they feel guilty since they aren't "living that life." If they were able to marry and pass, why would they ever acknowledge?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

That’s not what I asked you. I’m aware the majority of men are attracted to women. I’m asking you why some men aren’t, and why some women aren’t?

Also- willingness to acknowledge same sex attraction has nothing to do with whether or not same sex attraction (or opposite sex attraction) is innate. If anything, it sounds like you’re saying sexuality is in fact innate, but many people suppress it.

You asked if it’s true that sexuality is innate, yet have offered no real reasoning as to why it’s not. Why would someone choose to be a sexuality that would get them ostracized? Why wouldn’t lgb people be more open to trans people who claim to be homosexual (but are definitively heterosexual) (also, why would trans people want yet another label -homosexual - that would ostracize them)? Why would homosexual people in countries where being homosexual could get them killed still engage in homosexual relationships if it’s not innate?

Basically- how is sexuality not innate? Exposure to oversexed media makes no sense as an answer because homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality all existed before media.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (23 children)

You've made the positive claim - there is innate sexuality. You have to prove that. I can't prove there is no god, but religious people are on the line to prove it. People have plenty of reasons for sexuality - trauma, being exposed to something at the time of sexuality discovery and certainly socialization. There are plenty of potential reasons to explain sexuality, but there is no reason to believe it is innate. Again, those who make the claims have to prove their existence. It was the our community who claimed it was to deflect negativity in a campaign for acceptance. It's clear sexuality can change. That is not innate.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You get wet and aroused from a naked woman you like nearby? Or it is just visual liking and romantic stuff?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We've gotten far from my ignored point that there is zero evidence sexuality is innate. And I promise you won't solve my sexuality via the internet, when I've been struggling with it for a long time. Similarly, I've learned not about to share my personal history with people on the internet.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was answered. Researches, experiments and conversion therapies that were saying it is not innate - all failed and found no support for their claim. In science it is very often used "proof to the contrary" methodics, when laws are proven and concluded from making an assumption that law is incorrect and going from there, finding that opposite to the law can't be true, and though law is true. So, as a former scientist, I see all those failed researches, experiments and conversion theraies as evidence for sexuality being innate. Plus it is corresponds with living esperience with majority of homosexual people. Even for bisexual people sexuality is seems to be always staying constant, if they are liking men for 80% and women for 20%, after 30 years, even if lived with women - they still have same ration on how they are liking men and women.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Experience of homosexual people is not enough of an evidence? Especially in countries, where lesbians are forced into marriage, and yet lesbians are failing to get aroused from men even with long time living with hem or with different ones (I was married on a man as well).

The fact that all tried conversion therapies failed is not enough of an evidence?

The fact that all researches on "fluidity over life" failed to is not an evidence? Even if it not covers all the cases and there some exceptions (which are most likely not exist), it says that vast majority of homosexual people can not change sexuality.

What it should be then to make it more clear?