Both: How do you feel about the push for people to state preferred pronouns?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

I feel like asking about this because my company recently asked the HR team to start including our pronouns in our email signatures and company bios.

Pronouns stand-in for an individual's name in many cases, such as She/Her, He/Him, or Them/They. It's a small change that can have a lasting impression on those that we do business with. By putting your pronouns in your email signature, you are normalizing the expression of pronouns. Together, we can help foster a more comfortable and inclusive environment by taking the time to listen to, learn about, and respect others' identities.

It’s not a surprise, but it’s making me uncomfortable because of my beliefs and I wish they weren’t asking us to do it. It’s getting more and more common professionally though. 😑

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it’s stupid and a form of compelled speech.

This is just not how pronouns work. Pronouns are not a choice. They’re a split second observation. We don’t even pause to think about pronouns, we just know which one applies to an individual (not even just humans). Or we assume based off of what our eyes (or other senses) perceive.

I think the people who push for pronouns and bitch about misgendering should have been taught coping mechanisms for when reality doesn’t match their sense of self and or they encounter people who don’t give into überwoke culture. I find the whole pronouns/misgendering/“you’re invalidating me and my existence” thing so incredibly narcissistic. It’s so off putting that they’d be safe from me ever misgendering them because I’d never want to speak to them.

I agree with what you’ve said before about trans people “earning” their pronouns.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel similarly. Using preferred pronouns should be something we can choose to do, but not something that is compelled. I feel like employers and others shouldn’t pressure people to say their pronouns because beliefs can be different and it’s also very personal.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Silly and compelling speech. I resent being told that my perceptions of reality are morally wrong and must be corrected to align with someone’s idiosyncrasies.

Also wildly insulting to many people who don’t go to gender church and have pronouns to be blessed with by others all day long.

[–]worried19 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

gender church

Ha, I like that. Religion is a good comparison.

[–]questioningtw 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

I find it insulting. You can tell by looking at me and by my name that I am a woman. If someone is transgender it is up to them to let people know they are transitioning and to use the correct pronouns, no one should be forced to be compelled into pretending that being trans ids something normal and common.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you mean you find it insulting for someone to ask your pronouns? If so, I agree, for most of us it’s really obvious. I guess preferred pronouns do normalize trans identities and that isn’t something we should want necessarily.

[–]questioningtw 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

yes I would. I might not be the most feminine woman around, but if you where to say hey questioningtw are you or a he or she? I would be pretty damn offended. I would feel different if it where an accidental misgendering, then I wouldn't care.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I literally have no idea why they are doing that and saying pronouns, because when writing or speaking to person personally in English you never using pronouns at all. Unless you are speaking to royality or queen/king.

You will not write in mail to a person "he" or "she", you will write "you".

Plus my memory is very bad on names and other weird things like neo-pronouns or any pronouns, so in 90% of cases I will just forget anyways, so it is useless.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

forget

And then of course I will be bigoted, and in some countries like Norway I will get into jail for 3 years (or some US states I will be charged money) just because I have mental issues. Demand from someone something they can't do and then punish the victim, yay!

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Are they forcing you to do it, or just asking?

I think it's wrong. Gender identity is like sexual orientation. It's a personal matter and your company has no right to demand private information like that. Mandatory pronouns not only force gender critical feminists to go against their political beliefs, but also religious people to go against their religious beliefs, and puts GNC people and stealth or closeted trans people in an awkward position.

I would never give my pronouns. If my company didn't accept my answer that I'm not comfortable talking about gender in public, then I'd look for a new job. I know it sounds easy to say that, but I'm not about to let myself be bullied on the matter.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree. It’s a personal thing and it feels wrong for someone to insist you reveal something about yourself like that. It shouldn’t be assumed that we all believe in gender identity. You can treat trans people well and not believe in the ideology.

They are just asking right now. It’s tough though because you don’t want to be seen as not being like a team player by not doing it (and everyone else is). I really don’t want to do it though. If I put she/her, I’d be telling people they have to call me that which isn’t how I see pronouns and if I put he/him or they/them I feel like I’d be seen as mocking because I don’t mean it so 🤷‍♀️. I’m just not doing anything right now.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not to mention, there's data that says when women are reminded that they're female, they perform less well on tasks. And when others are reminded other people are female, they expect less from them and see them as less competent. There are studies on that. So forcing women to give "she/her" pronouns could also be a catalyst for treating us worse. Which obviously isn't something that should be encouraged in a work environment.

If I were you, I'd just abstain for now. You could also maybe approach your boss at some point and explain how it feels from a trans perspective, although I don't know if you'd be comfortable outing yourself like that at work.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I remember learning about that in college. Just in general, I think it’s better not to reminded of your sex in another way because I feel like it’s super inescapable as it is and it’s not something that helps you professionally.

I think I’m just not going to do anything and hope they don’t say anything about it. I don’t feel like I want to come out as trans to work.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Shouldn't this also be a sign to stop using gendered names and mr/mrs as well, as well as other gendered language?

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That wouldn't be a bad thing. Gendered names and gendered titles also seem unnecessary.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I got carried away and forgot the work environment part lol. This is how I feel about that aspect too. It’s unprofessional and goes against the religious and personal freedom of individuals imo. You always word things so well.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey, thanks. And yeah, I just view it as politics intruding in a space that should be neutral and non-political. They wouldn't force people to state their religion or political party at work.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I normally wouldn't even think about pronouns outside of english class if it weren't for trans-activists. If pronouns are important to someone and they wanna display them, then go ahead! But its audacious to expect everyone else to play along too.

[–]BayHorseGender Critical 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's insulting. So many people have already asked me if I'm trans, implying that I'm less of a woman because of the way I dress. Asking for my pronouns would be doing the same thing.

[–]strictly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would refuse. I have no preferred pronouns and I'm not going to pretend to to have preferences I don't have.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! I think this is what I’m going to do too.

[–]slushpilot 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Declaring pronouns is like saying you want to be identified according to the social expectations of a certain group of people. I am not a group of people, and I DO NOT want anyone getting first impressions & making assumptions about me based on that.

It's like saying people should speak differently when "ladies" are present—I don't want someone acting differently or hiding their true self from me just because I say up-front that I'm a "she/her" or a "he/him". Identities and relationships are negotiated, not declared—and that involves the subtle art of politeness. In a professional setting, avoiding questions about the personal like who the fuck you sleep with. I don't want to care.

Even just putting these pronouns out there is a signal to watch what you say around such a peson because they take this identity stuff seriously enough to put it in a professional email signature. It's like bright coloring on a venomous animal. If I got two email replies for a business inquiry, and one of them was signed with a "she/her", guess which one I would avoid.

If you wanted to respond to HR sarcastically, say "YES! And we should all state our race & ethnicity too, so people know when it's inappropriate to use certain slurs!" ...I mean, think about that for a minute and what it implies.

FFS these people are idiots. It's like HR has never dealt with actual relationships with people before... then again maybe they haven't: they do call them Human Resources after all. Mindless robots.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you wanted to respond to HR sarcastically, say "YES! And we should all state our race & ethnicity too, so people know when it's inappropriate to use certain slurs!" ...I mean, think about that for a minute and what it implies. FFS these people are idiots. It's like HR has never dealt with actual relationships with people before... then again maybe they haven't: they do call them Human Resources after all. Mindless robots.

😂 I don’t think I’m really to escalate to that level (especially since I work in HR, even though this wasn’t up to me), but that would be really funny to do.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you wanted to respond to HR sarcastically, say "YES! And we should all state our race & ethnicity too, so people know when it's inappropriate to use certain slurs!" ...I mean, think about that for a minute and what it implies.

Don't give people any ideas. Soon you'll get badges and icons so you know who to bow to and who you can't disagree with.

I am not a group of people, and I DO NOT want anyone getting first impressions & making assumptions about me based on that. Even just putting these pronouns out there is a signal to watch what you say around such a peson because they take this identity stuff seriously enough to put it in a professional email signature. It's like bright coloring on a venomous animal. If I got two email replies for a business inquiry, and one of them was signed with a "she/her", guess which one I would avoid.

YES. THIS EXACTLY. YES.

[–]jackrusselterror1 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t like any request for things outside my job description where I feel like there’s no way I can opt out without being penalized. I also heavily dislike bringing politics into the workplace. I feel that companies promoting pronoun circles or suggesting adding preferred pronouns on email signatures is blurring the normal boundaries between personal politics and work. I think it’s a huge faux pas in etiquette on the employers part.

I’m very obviously a woman, my pronouns are based on my sex, like the vast majority of the population. I don’t have more in common with a man who identifies as a woman or considers himself to be female-aligned, than a man who uses sex-based pronouns. By using the same pronouns and words, I am signaling, through language, that men who identify as women are women and there’s no difference in our groups, when obviously sex is the big glaring difference.

The biggest issue to me is that this isn’t an individual deciding to announce their personal preferred pronouns- it’s a company strongly suggesting all of its employees do so that makes it strange and off-putting, and honestly, it’s corporate virtue-signaling.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If we're gonna act like pronouns are just a string of words unrelated to sex, I would much rather we address everyone with "they" or a made-up neutral pronoun (kinda like what Swedes did).

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I haven't been asked to do this yet in a professional setting and dread the day it happens. I already know my industry is heavily pro TRA but I currently only do a few things with any direct supervision (work from home & mostly independently) so haven't been given instructions like that so far. Still, lots of people I interact with include pronouns in email or twitter feeds. I am not sure what I would do if I were asked since I'd like to say something like, describe me as you prefer / not up to me, but probably getting into a whole discussion about it would not be a good idea and would just lead to me being seen as not up to speed and unprofessional.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I forget the term, but there is evidence that highlighting a woman's sex in the workplace (or any other minority's oppressed category), increases the sex-discrimination toward her. There is another term, I'm also forgetting (it's early) that someone reminded of their sex-oppression will fail to perform as well and will perform more like the stereotype of women. But I'd look those terms up and highlight that would be why I wouldn't participate. Similarly, the expression of pronouns for trans still in the closet puts unnecessary pressure on them. You can say no, "kindly."

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think it’s a nice gesture but not a big deal. Nobody pays attention to them anyway.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, I’m really not sure if anyone pays attention to pronouns in signature and bios. For the trans people I know who include their pronouns, it’s usually clear which ones they’d likely prefer even if they don’t pass so I’m not sure if stating them really does anything. I’m curious, do you feel like normalizing people stating their pronouns is helpful for trans people?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In some ways. It normalized the practice and I think it’s valuable for some people. But it’s limited.

Like for me everyone looking at me knows I am a trans woman. Whether they use she or he is just determined by how they feel about trans people. Circulating my pronouns wouldn’t change anything for most of us.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense. I agree with you that the value is limited. I’m sort of confused about why it’s emphasized so much.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's fair to do a title. You can't see the person writing an email and not everyone has a gender-specific name. I'm fine with signing my emails Ms. soandso. The title Mx. is growing in popularity, even though I think it's lame. I don't want to use they/them pronouns. I don't do it out of respect, I do it because my industry is very left and they buy into all of trans stuff. In fact doing it is out of disrespect because I don't respect if you need everyone around you to pretend you aren't what you are, and I don't respect bullies either.

Something I hate even more than pronouns in bio is the pronoun circle. You know, where everyone is in a room and has to state their name and dead obvious pronouns and that one woke girl says "she, they" because that makes sense (no, it doesn't.)

To QT people reading this, sorry it's so blunt. On the internet I can word things less diplomatically. But it's how I really feel and I do feel bad that I can't say this to my QT friends because they are volatile on gender stuff. It's a threat to my career, but I don't like the idea of having a problem with someone and not telling them so they can't get any insight into it.

[–]MrFahrenheit46Gen Z butch dyke 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's dumb. I had to do it for a class once and it felt like a massive waste of time. And it was awkward since I'm a detrans female but I still pass as a guy and still "live as a guy" at school.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That sounds uncomfortable. 😟 I feel like the detrans perspective is super important but isn’t often discussed. Thank for sharing!