Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association?

submitted by LemurLemur from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think it’s a deliberate association, but not one that comes from GC women, it comes from tras. Every single thing that makes GC women “mean” could be (should be) said about libfems, tras, and their ilk.

Really what are GC women doing that is mean? Are we compelling speech? Forcing ourselves into others safe spaces ans sports etc? Denying the lived reality of slightly over half the world’s population? Perpetuating rape culture and homophobia(and sometimes racism)? Are we appropriating the struggles of other groups of people? No. GC does none of this. All we do is say that men are male and women are female, that females deserve rights and equality that aren’t undermined by any males, and have the audacity to expect a man who tells us that he’s a woman be able to actually explain how in a way that’s not misogynistic and circular.

Women are always “mean” when we stand up for ourselves and our needs.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I see. So you do not perceive anything rude in the GC community at all. I accept that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

There can be people who say rude things- that’s not gender critical. That’s a rude person. There’s a difference. There have been plenty of rude and even violent transwomen. Would you then say that transwomen are rude and violent?

[–]grixitperson 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

watching this to see LL's reply.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

There can be people who say rude things- that’s not gender critical. That’s a rude person.

There have been plenty of rude and even violent transwomen

Are you saying "neither GC nor trans people are rude inherently, but some people in either demographic can and do behave rudely", or are you saying "GC people aren't inherently rude, but transwomen are"?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Are you dense? Sorry that was rude. But that was me being rude. Nothing to do with me being gender critical.

What I’m saying is that there are people on both sides of this issue that have the capacity to be rude. I didn’t say that TW are inherently rude or that gc women are never rude. What I said, very clearly, is that there are some gc people who can say rude things. There are also TW who have said rude and violent things. I then asked you if you would consider TW to be rude and violent the way that you insinuate that gc women are rude, simply because there are some TW who have said rude and violent things. I notice that you don’t actually respond to what people are asking you, that could be interpreted as rude. Does that mean you’re GC?

It’s worth noting that I only got rude towards you once I realized that you were going to skew what I said and avoid addressing anything any of us say. So I’d also like to point out that most examples I see of gender critical people being rude seem to be born out of the irritation that stems from tras/qt ignoring what we’re saying or deliberately avoiding responding to our points. I worded my response very clearly. I have no doubt that you knew what I was asking and are now deflecting.

Tldr- literally anyone can be rude. And rudeness is open to interpretation. I think you engaging with us but not actually responding to our questions is incredibly rude, for example.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Are you dense? Sorry that was rude. But that was me being rude. Nothing to do with me being gender critical.

...I genuinely didn't expect a GC person to start insulting my intelligence in the middle of a conversation about how whether GC should be associated with rudeness. Though the mentality that one's behavior should not reflect on the demographic they speak for does help in understand why GC people don't understand why rudeness is associated with them.

I notice that you don’t actually respond to what people are asking you, that could be interpreted as rude. Does that mean you’re GC?

Is this intended to be facetious? Because 1.) I never said "all GC are rude" and 2.) I never said "all rude things are thereby GC". I didn't even say that I firmly believe GC should be considered rude. I asked if the association people make between rudeness and GC was something GC wanted, or did not want. That's all. You are asking me to account for things I either didn't say, or that aren't related to the topic. But I can comb over it and give it a shot, I guess...

Really what are GC women doing that is mean?

I have not accused GC women of doing anything mean. I asked if the association of meanness is something GC finds desirable or not.

Are we compelling speech?

Some GC people take issue with the way some people use words, but I do not think I've seen any significant consensus about how speech should be used in the wider GC convos I've seen. There seems to even be some rousing debate among GC about how they want gendered language used, moving forward. I personally see this as a good thing.

Forcing ourselves into others safe spaces ans sports etc? Denying the lived reality of slightly over half the world’s population? Perpetuating rape culture and homophobia(and sometimes racism)? Are we appropriating the struggles of other groups of people?

While all valid conversations to have, none of these topics are about what I asked, which is whether GC wants to be associated with rudeness, or if they find it to be an undesirable association. This is what is the kids these days call "whataboutism", I think.

Are there any other questions I'm not answering? Because most of them are presented more for rhetorical purposes (ie "why do women owe men consideration"), which I admit, I didn't answer because the implication is that I have an opinion about what women should do. I don't. I just want to know what GC thinks about its own image.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

  1. Lmao that was my point. I was being rude. That doesn’t mean that gc women are rude. It would mean that I was rude. Just me. An individual. By your logic, transwomen, tras, and libfems are also rude so there’s no point in anyone calling gc rude since both sides are. I’m not saying you are calling us rude, I’m saying nobody should since it would be applicable to both sides.

  2. I was pointing out that “rude” can mean many things. So again- both sides of this debate have rude people. The only people who say gc is rude are tras and trans people. They also say they want to kill and rape us, so I’ll take being “rude” over violent any day.

  3. I didn’t say you accused us of being rude. I asked you what we do that’s rude. You have yet to explain. I also pointed out that they way that tras say we are rude is nonsensical. It is not rude to stand by your beliefs. It is rude to force your beliefs on others and compel their speech. Which is what tras do.

  4. GC takes issue with how words are misused, yes. We don’t force men to stop calling themselves women, we simply say that calling yourself a woman doesn’t make it factual.

  5. Regardless of what you wanted me to respond to, what I’m saying is that there’s a difference between being called rude, and actually being rude. The things that I listed are rude things to do. And gc doesn’t do those things. My point is I’d rather be called rude as a deflection than actually be rude. Sometimes conversations branch out. What I said wasn’t irrelevant to the topic. It’s me expanding on the topic.

  6. You asked us if we are okay with being called rude, and somehow didn’t expect any of us to examine and discuss the actual reasons that we are called rude? So you just wanted yes or no answers? What then, is the point? There’d be no room for discussion. You can keep saying that we are not responding to your actual question- yet each and every response you’ve gotten is related to what you asked. And yes, there’s still several questions that I asked as well as other users asked that you ignored. Everyone here gave you relevant answers, you seem to be going out of your way to avoid addressing them.

“Though the mentality that one's behavior should not reflect on the demographic they speak for does help in understand why GC people don't understand why rudeness is associated with them.”

  1. I actually addressed this with my first sentence. I said it is associated with us because tras associated it with us. This is their narrative. And it is undeserved. Everything else I said was pointing out why. I literally said it’s not rude to speak honestly and not compromise your beliefs. That is why some people call gc rude: refusal to capitulate to their ideology.

  2. By your logic, since I was rude, all gc people are rude. And since some tras and transwomen threaten to rape and murder “t*rfs”, ALL tras and transwomen are violent people who advocate the rape and murder of people who disagree with their world view. You said it, not me.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I see. Well, thanks for responding, even if it was annoying for you.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The only thing that’s annoying is when the non gc users open the door for a worthwhile discussion, only to slam the door immediately after. We come here to debate, but the non gc users seem to not want to debate, ever.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can't say I'm shocked that few non-GC people are motivated to stay long. Unstructured debate where people degrade to insults tends to just feel like fighting.