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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

  1. GC literally said in the 1st thread that there is only one WOC on GenCyn and everyone else is a white male. In the 2nd thread, a teacher said trans kids only exist in wealthy white communities. She teaches in a poor inner city school and says there are no trans kids.

  2. Because you're using trans men to insult trans women. If you want to insult trans women, call them narcissistic, AGP, go ahead. Just leave trans men out of it.

  3. I have seen many deny dysphoria.

  4. Not all of us would be safe and comfortable if GC had its way. We are also women and we know what is and isn't safe for us. We're tired of GC speaking for all women. They only speak for themselves.

  5. Most of my friends are liberal, vote democrat and support social justice.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

  1. You cannot base you’re entire understating of GC on that post. And I’m willing to bet my entire paycheck that the first poster you mentioned doesn’t mean that only One woc was in the sub at all- it’s more likely that they meant a frequent commenter, also- doesn’t mean they think only one trans poc exists in the world. We have all told you so many times that we are well aware that trans poc exist. This is just an odd thing to cling to for several reasons. As far as trans kids- have you been to the school she was talking about? Or do you assume that all schools have trans kids? If she meant there’s no such thing- that’s not racist

  2. This doesn’t even make any logical sense so I’m just gonna skip on past it.

  3. And you’ve had many tell you they know it exists. So it seems like denying dysphoria exists isn’t really a specifically gc thing. Also- are you unaware that there are trans people who say dysphoria isn’t a thing and or that you don’t need to be dysphoric to transition? Are those trans people and the tras who agree gc? By your logic, they would be. Except- every single gc trans person I know insists that dysphoria must be present to be trans. So... sounds like this is another illogical leap that I’m gonna skip from now on.

  4. Why would males not being allowed in female spaces make females unsafe? I’m not speaking for anyone, I’m saying that it’s just a fact that what gc advocates for would not undermine any female specific needs or rights. Even if some are upset that their TW friends don’t have access to those rights, their rights are intact. It’s laughable to claim that libfem females would be unsafe because males can’t access their rights. They may be upset about it, that’s not the same as being unsafe or disenfranchised.

  5. As are mine, they just also understand biology and fact. Just because you think abolishing female rights is social justice doesn’t mean you’re correct.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

  1. There are at least a few posts where GC says the trans movement is a white male or upper class movement.

  2. In basic terms, don't use trans men to insult trans women. You can say trans women are narcissistic and AGP. You can't say trans women are silencing trans men, or trans men are nicer than trans women. When insulting trans women, don't mention trans men (unless you're insulting them too).

  3. There are also many GC people that deny dysphoria exists, like this comment.

  4. You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe. I am a majority rules kind of person. If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.

  5. Most of my female friends support trans rights. We are OK with making all bathrooms gender neutral (with no gaps in the stalls).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

  1. They are saying that white men are the ones leading the group, they are saying that white men are the ones using the statistics of violence against trans poc to further their own cause. That doesn’t mean that they don’t understand that trans poc exist. I don’t know how else to make it clear to you that we understand that people of any race can believe in any and all types of sexualities and identities. Like- you can keep insisting that this isn’t the case, but it’s an incredibly odd choice to make, since several of us have corrected your misconceptions so many times. It’s even more odd considering every single instance we see in media of a trans person being harmed or killed, that trans person is a poc. The only white trans person I can even think of off of the top of my head that we know was a victim of a transphobic attack was Brandon Teena. I’m sure others exist, all of the ones we see currently are poc. But sure, tell us we don’t think they exist. Because that makes sense. So much sense. At this point you are willfully believing what you want despite evidence to the contrary. But whatever floats your boat, buddy.

  2. If we believe that transwomen talk over transmen, we have every right to say so. If we believe that transmen are nicer than transwomen, we have every right to say so. These examples are simply not even examples of us talking badly about transmen. You need better examples to back up literally all of your claims or nobody will ever take them seriously. Just a tip.

  3. The point I’m making is that there are people, both gc and qt, who deny dysphoria exists. So why are you insisting that this is a gc specific claim?

  4. I didn’t decide what makes other females unsafe. You did. All I did was ask you how not allowing males in the bathrooms would make females unsafe. It was a question, not a statement. And obviously a question you can’t answer which must be why you’re deflecting.

  5. And most of my friends disagree (they support trans rights- but like, actual rights, not the privilege to infringe on the rights of others)... what’s your point?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

  1. Some GC understand people of all identities can support the trans movement, some don't. Anyway, how does GC know the demographics of GenCyn?

  2. Many trans men are tired of being used to insult trans women. Look at these threads.

TERFs and trans masc/AFAB people

They really believe this - Trans men are perfect princesses, and trans women are rapists and murderers

The second thread is a screenshot of this conversation:

TIFs: Hello boys, can we go here?

Men: No.

TIFs: Oh bother. Thank you fellas anyway. Bye! (◕ᴗ◕✿)

TIMs: Hello girls, can we go here?

Women: No.

TIMs: rapemurderfuckyourapestabkillyoubitches foams at the mouth

Hmmm... I wonder what's different. Hmmm...

For one this isn't even true. There was a case where over 150 LGBT students were escorted out of Iowa state capitol after a group of trans kids refused to leave the men’s restroom and use gender-neutral restrooms. Trans men themselves say in those threads they don't ask cis men before using men's restrooms and locker rooms. I'm a cis woman, I have used the men's restroom a few times, and I don't care what men think. So clearly this rambling came out of nowhere except stereotypes. GC had numerous threads where they say trans men are nice and subservient while trans women are violent and threatening. Since r/gendercritical was banned and Ovarit and s/gendercritical are new, it will be hard for me to pull up threads.

In addition to gender stereotyping, these kind of statements assume that trans men are OK with the way GC treats trans women or that trans men will not stand up for themselves, neither which is the case. Trans men are fighting for the rights to use men's restrooms and locker rooms, be called with the correct pronoun, and they will stand up to transphobia as much as trans women will.

  1. Cite a source where QT claimed dysphoria doesn't exist. I have been citing my sources.

  2. Some females would feel unsafe not allowing trans women in their bathrooms, including me.

  3. Most of my friends believe people should have a right to use the restroom that matches their gender identity and are against misgendering.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

  1. If some understand and some don’t it’s not a gc point lmao

  2. Im sure there’s lots of things transmen are tired of... and gc doesn’t have to care about any of those things to support them maintaining female rights. You keep focusing on this, I’m telling you it doesn’t matter. People can have opinions and say what they want. GC doesn’t support the “trans” aspect of transmen. They support them as females. So all this crap about what gc said or how tm feel about it- we don’t fucking care. We care that transmen have access to their female rights in case they need them. What are you not understanding about that?

  3. You are obviously ill informed if you’ve never seen tras argue that dysphoria isn’t necessary to be trans.

  4. Okay... but WHY would they feel unsafe? WHAT IS THE REASON???? I understand that you are claiming that you and others would feel unsafe- but I’ve asked you a few times to explain how/why you feel unsafe?

  5. I understand what your friends believe. I don’t get why you keep telling me.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

  1. I have posted that because I have seen multiple posts by GC.

  2. All we're asking you to do is to stop using trams men to insult trans women. Most of the mantra is based on gender stereotypes and can be easily disproven? Isn't GC against gender stereotypes, or natal sex stereotypes?

  3. Some people say you don't to have dysphoria to be trans. That's different from saying dysphoria doesn't exist.

  4. No one is required to justify why they feel unsafe.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

  1. How are you not getting what I’m saying? I get you say that some people think this- but if you say SOME- it means not all. Which means it’s not a gc specific stance. I don’t know how else to explain this. Like I said- you just don’t want to admit to what I’m saying. You are literally engaging with a poc gc woman who is telling you this is not true, and you just keep saying “yuh huh I’ve seen it some times”. It’s strange. No gc perosn in this sub feels that way, so why do you keep saying this is a gc thing? Tras compare being male to being a black female, do you call them out for being racist?

  2. Okay, and all gc asks of you is that you stop pretending males can be women and that they deserve access to our rights. You see how you can ask shit of people and be denied it? This is one of those things. You don’t get to police how people feel or what we think. Sorry.

  3. And as I’ve said, so many times, this also relates to number 1: IF SOME PEOPLE THINK THIS AND SOME PEOPLE DONT- IT IS NOT THE STANCE OF THE GROUP AS A WHOLE.

I honestly don’t know how else to say this simply so you understand. It’s not a complex statement, you just refuse to get it.

4./ Okay sure you don’t have to explain- but you’re in a debate sub and making some random ass statement that doesn’t make sense, if you want anyone to take you seriously, you should explain. Because saying that you’d feel unsafe because males aren’t allowed in female spaces is ludicrous to anyone reading this. If you said you’d be upset, you’d be sad, you’d be angry, I’d get it. But you telling me that men and boys- I’m sorry, males, being banned from female only spaces would make you feel unsafe and then refusing to explain why kind of makes you look like you’re full of shit and just saying things to try to defend tras/qt without bothering to make sense. Which... sounds about right for a tra so why am I surprised lol

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Question for you: if a group of 1,000 as a whole claims that 2+3=5, and they all agree, is it okay to say that the group’s consensus is that 2+3=5?

If within that same group, 21 of them believe that 1+2=7, but 979 of them believe that 1+2=3, would you focus on the 21 who think 1+2=7, and decide that that’s the group stance, or can you see that the vast majority says the answer is 3?

Further, if it’s directly split, and 500 think 1+2=7 and 500 think 1+2=3, do you lump them all together and say that the group stance is that 1+2=7? Why or why not?

u/Genderbender

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

  1. I understand some GC believe this, not all. But I've never heard anyone outside of GC say this So this is a GC specific stance. Anyway, what does this have to do with you being a WOC?

  2. OK, we will stay out of your spaces. Even as a cis woman I will now exclusively use men's restrooms and locker rooms.

  3. My comment was aimed at people who believe dysphoria doesn't exist. Many do, and I can link to posts that prove it.

  4. One reason is if you don't fit someone else's idea on what it means to be a woman, you will be harassed. Look at this thread on GenCyn TERFs harass trans woman in the restroom. A user on the old GC sub started a thread about how she was in a bar bathroom and heard someone with a male voice. She questioned what is this person doing there from her stall and the person's friend was mad at her for misgendering the person. She assumed the person was male based on their voice. Celia Cruz sounds like a man, as well as a few other female singers.

I will say if I am in a public place I will be upset if a random person (except employees) questioned what am I doing in a public place. I have told people off who questioned why I'm in the men's room. It's interesting when GC says they're fine with trans men using women's facilities, yet this is what's going to happen when a passing trans men when they enter women's facilities, as long as people continue to question men in women's restrooms. Are you going to require people to show their IDs for using the bathroom?

Another thing is many women won't mind males in their restrooms and believe trans women should have the right to use the women's restroom. Truthfully, I don't care who’s in the stall next to me or who’s changing next to me, as long as they are minding their own business.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

  1. Of course you’ve only heard this from gc becsuse tras aren’t allowed to criticize trans people even when they are wrong lmao. My point about me being a poc is that we tend not to be unaware that other poc exist and they exist in all forms and types... it doesn’t matter if you’ve heard some gc people make that statement- it doesn’t mean it applies to gc, it means that individual believes it. And what they’re saying wasn’t even racist to begin with so it’s an ineffective example for you to use. There’s a comment from gc on this post saying stuff I disagree with, yet somehow we are both gc. Because we both agree on what gc people all agree on. Do you get what I’m saying?

  2. Lmao you know what? Sure. If every single tra and all transwomen stay out of female spaces, even tho nobody said female tras needed to... I won’t say that TW talk over TM. But it has to be all of them. You’re gonna arrange that?

  3. If your comment was aimed at people who do believe that, then it’s not aimed at gc and shouldn’t have been a point you even brought up as it would be irrelevant

  4. Soo... you’d feel unsafe because a female noticed a man was in the bathroom? So that’s why another female may feel unsafe?

Celia Cruz does not sound like a man. Women with deep voices don’t sound like men. The woman heard a man. She was right. How does this instill fear in females in female only spaces?

You can tell people off for questioning you using the men’s room all you want, just don’t get mad when we tell males off for being in female spaces, or you run the risk of coming off like a hypocrite.

As for transmen, a passing transman wouldn’t use the women’s room and the men’s room is not a space designated for a protected class. It’s not meant to protect males from females. A non passing transman using the women’s room is an obvious female using the women’s room. If a passing transman were to use the women’s restroom, they understand that women in the space think a man is in there, so I’m sure they’d be prepared for a reaction. Unless they are trying to prove some weird point or are completely lacking in self awareness.

We don’t need to ID people for the bathroom, we can use our eyes. An obvious male could be banned and or removed.

  1. You can give all the consent you want for yourself- you shouldn’t not be giving consent for everyone else. The female spaces are for females- so if every female in the space is fine, okay I guess. But if even one is uncomfortable, you’re saying she should feel unsafe or uncomfortable in a space meant to make her feel safe and comfortable so that someone the space wasn’t meant for can use it?

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe.

I agree, every person can only consent for themselves.

I am a majority rules kind of person.

I don't think we should aspire for a tyranny of the majority, minorities should get their say too.

If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.

They can consent for themselves, but never consent for other women who don't, and if males should be allowed in female bathrooms they should need consent from every woman, not just a majority. And here it seems the "minority" who don't consent is very large, at least 40%. And 40% of all women is a far greater number than the very low number of males who would benefit from gaining entrance to the female bathrooms, thus I think our priority should be the comfort of these women not 0.3 % of the males.