Trans people/QT: What is the best or most important thing gender critical people can do to help you?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (22 children)

A few things.

  1. Remember trans people span across all races and social classes. For instance, in the thread The idiots at GenCyn finally discover Ovarit. GC brought up that a GenCyn user is an Iranian trans man. One user wrote:

She gets so much attention from gencyn cuz she's the one WoC they actually have in their midst of privileged, white males.

I read Gencyn for many years and participated there as a cis woman. Not everyone there is a privileged white males. Another thread is TIF was "found bleeding down there" and went to the hospital where the doctor be like "you are on your period" where one user said "“Dysphoria” is such a first world problem." Another thread from the old GC sub is Transgender student in a musical. This is an archived thread and the OP's mom is a teacher who has a trans (FTM) student in a musical. Unfortunately, not all the comments were saved. I do remember another person also claimed to be a teacher and said trans kids only exist in rich white communities, and in her poor inner city school district there are no trans kids, just GNC kids.

There are black trans people. There are brown trans people. There are poor trans people. There are trans people in 3rd world countries. There are trans people in Syria and North Korea. There are black and disabled trans people. There are black, disabled and poor trans people.

That said, QT should also stop using other marginalized people to compare it to trans oppression.

  1. Please stop pretending to care about trans men. I understand GC will continue to claim they include trans men in their feminism, even though they don’t. But stop using trans men to insult trans women. For instance, on reddit a trans man started a thread on how some trans women talk over trans men. In response GC in the old sub created a thread titled "TIF’s discuss how badly they are treated by over-sexualized and narcissistic TIM’s". The thread unfortunately wasn't archived, but I did save a comment "TIW: men do not give a fuck about you. Please come back to your sisters who love you." Honestly GC silences trans men also, like saying dysphoria is a "first world problem", calling trans men narcissistic for wanting their pronouns respected, the same thing they are accusing trans women of doing. If GC genuinely cared about trans men they would uplift trans men's voices in response to this. No, they are just using trans men to prove trans women are narcissistic and fetishistic and then they will accuse trans men of the same things.

If you're going to insult trans women, fine. Just leave trans men out of it. This goes for any other marginalized group as well.

  1. Acknowledge dysphoria exists. I am a cis woman. I am disgusted at the thought of me having a penis. If I was born male or woke up male the next day I would transition. The only reason I don't have dysphoria is because I was born in the correct body.

Also dysphoria affects people differently. Some trans men get pregnant because it’s the only way they can have a kid. Other trans men will have to be put on suicide watch. It's not a first world problem. It has nothing to do with socially imposed gender roles.

  1. Stop acting like you speak for all women. I'm sure many GC women are afraid to speak out. But the majority of women are not GC and you need to accept that. Reddit didn't silence women, they silenced GC, which includes GC guys. It's GC women who are afraid of men in women's bathrooms, not women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Questions:

  1. Considering almost ALL of the statistics about violence committed against trans people are cases of poc being harmed or killed, the “transphobia is white supremacy” nonsense slogan, and the way that trans people even took over the BLM hashtag- in what world do you think that gc doesn’t realize that there are trans people of all races and ethnicities?

  2. Do you understand that when GC says they support transmen- they mean because they are female? As in, we support them having female rights, the same ones we want for ourselves? Doesn’t mean we give a fuck about them being trans or their needs, wants, and preferences that exist specifically because they are trans?

  3. Do you understand that we can acknowledge dysphoria exists, but not think it means we need to placate trans people in whatever ways they demand?

  4. “It has nothing to do with socially imposed gender roles.”

What does it have to do with, then?

  1. Do you understand that not everyone is either gc or QT/tras? There are plenty of females who don’t even know the term gc and aren’t even well informed on trans ideology who don’t support the things you support. Are all of those teenage girls who don’t feel safe changing in their locker rooms because of one teenage boy’s sense of identity gender critical? Or are they just scared and uncomfortable? Are all of the females who have expressed that they think it’s unfair or even unsafe to compete with males (any males) gender critical? Or do they just want fair and equal sport?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

  1. I have seen GC imply and openly state the trans movement is a white male movement, or an upper class movement and even cited a few sources.

  2. You misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote don't use trans men to insult trans women. Please don't say things like "the TIMs are silencing the TIFs". If you want to insult trans women, leave trans men out of it. It's one thing to insult trans women, it's another low to use trans men to insult trans women when you insult trans men yourselves.

  3. I have seen GC deny dysphoria exists, like the post above saying dysphoria is a 1st world problem. When GC people say trans men transition to escape misogyny, or because they are short little girls, they are denying dysphoria.

  4. I'd like GC to stop pretending they speak for every women, especially when there are over 3 billion women in the world and many do not share GC views. I and my female friends are OK with any gender changing in our locker rooms. I know because we discuss these things. That said, I hang out in liberal circles.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

  1. So you’re gonna ignore all evidence to the contrary for that same thread you always post. Cool. I’ll move on from this then.

  2. How is “the tims are silencing the tifs” an insult to transmen, as opposed to transwomen?

  3. Again, you want to use your go to thread instead of listening to actual gc people who acknowledge that gender dysphoria exists.

How do you do it? How do you seriously interact with gc people and tell us what we think, then have us say “no genderbender, that’s literally not what we think” and then you say “yeah it is I saw it in a thread I read!” Like... wut?

  1. So half of the women and girls have to be uncomfortable (btw, the bathroom example: all of the girls were uncomfortable. All of them. All. Parents too.) because you and your friends aren’t? You realize if gc had its way, all females would be safe and comfortable, even if some were mad that their male friends don’t get free range of female rights, right?

  2. I hang out in liberal circles too, I’m assuming an older age range. So idk what you thought that meant.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

  1. GC literally said in the 1st thread that there is only one WOC on GenCyn and everyone else is a white male. In the 2nd thread, a teacher said trans kids only exist in wealthy white communities. She teaches in a poor inner city school and says there are no trans kids.

  2. Because you're using trans men to insult trans women. If you want to insult trans women, call them narcissistic, AGP, go ahead. Just leave trans men out of it.

  3. I have seen many deny dysphoria.

  4. Not all of us would be safe and comfortable if GC had its way. We are also women and we know what is and isn't safe for us. We're tired of GC speaking for all women. They only speak for themselves.

  5. Most of my friends are liberal, vote democrat and support social justice.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

  1. You cannot base you’re entire understating of GC on that post. And I’m willing to bet my entire paycheck that the first poster you mentioned doesn’t mean that only One woc was in the sub at all- it’s more likely that they meant a frequent commenter, also- doesn’t mean they think only one trans poc exists in the world. We have all told you so many times that we are well aware that trans poc exist. This is just an odd thing to cling to for several reasons. As far as trans kids- have you been to the school she was talking about? Or do you assume that all schools have trans kids? If she meant there’s no such thing- that’s not racist

  2. This doesn’t even make any logical sense so I’m just gonna skip on past it.

  3. And you’ve had many tell you they know it exists. So it seems like denying dysphoria exists isn’t really a specifically gc thing. Also- are you unaware that there are trans people who say dysphoria isn’t a thing and or that you don’t need to be dysphoric to transition? Are those trans people and the tras who agree gc? By your logic, they would be. Except- every single gc trans person I know insists that dysphoria must be present to be trans. So... sounds like this is another illogical leap that I’m gonna skip from now on.

  4. Why would males not being allowed in female spaces make females unsafe? I’m not speaking for anyone, I’m saying that it’s just a fact that what gc advocates for would not undermine any female specific needs or rights. Even if some are upset that their TW friends don’t have access to those rights, their rights are intact. It’s laughable to claim that libfem females would be unsafe because males can’t access their rights. They may be upset about it, that’s not the same as being unsafe or disenfranchised.

  5. As are mine, they just also understand biology and fact. Just because you think abolishing female rights is social justice doesn’t mean you’re correct.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

  1. There are at least a few posts where GC says the trans movement is a white male or upper class movement.

  2. In basic terms, don't use trans men to insult trans women. You can say trans women are narcissistic and AGP. You can't say trans women are silencing trans men, or trans men are nicer than trans women. When insulting trans women, don't mention trans men (unless you're insulting them too).

  3. There are also many GC people that deny dysphoria exists, like this comment.

  4. You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe. I am a majority rules kind of person. If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.

  5. Most of my female friends support trans rights. We are OK with making all bathrooms gender neutral (with no gaps in the stalls).

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

  1. They are saying that white men are the ones leading the group, they are saying that white men are the ones using the statistics of violence against trans poc to further their own cause. That doesn’t mean that they don’t understand that trans poc exist. I don’t know how else to make it clear to you that we understand that people of any race can believe in any and all types of sexualities and identities. Like- you can keep insisting that this isn’t the case, but it’s an incredibly odd choice to make, since several of us have corrected your misconceptions so many times. It’s even more odd considering every single instance we see in media of a trans person being harmed or killed, that trans person is a poc. The only white trans person I can even think of off of the top of my head that we know was a victim of a transphobic attack was Brandon Teena. I’m sure others exist, all of the ones we see currently are poc. But sure, tell us we don’t think they exist. Because that makes sense. So much sense. At this point you are willfully believing what you want despite evidence to the contrary. But whatever floats your boat, buddy.

  2. If we believe that transwomen talk over transmen, we have every right to say so. If we believe that transmen are nicer than transwomen, we have every right to say so. These examples are simply not even examples of us talking badly about transmen. You need better examples to back up literally all of your claims or nobody will ever take them seriously. Just a tip.

  3. The point I’m making is that there are people, both gc and qt, who deny dysphoria exists. So why are you insisting that this is a gc specific claim?

  4. I didn’t decide what makes other females unsafe. You did. All I did was ask you how not allowing males in the bathrooms would make females unsafe. It was a question, not a statement. And obviously a question you can’t answer which must be why you’re deflecting.

  5. And most of my friends disagree (they support trans rights- but like, actual rights, not the privilege to infringe on the rights of others)... what’s your point?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

  1. Some GC understand people of all identities can support the trans movement, some don't. Anyway, how does GC know the demographics of GenCyn?

  2. Many trans men are tired of being used to insult trans women. Look at these threads.

TERFs and trans masc/AFAB people

They really believe this - Trans men are perfect princesses, and trans women are rapists and murderers

The second thread is a screenshot of this conversation:

TIFs: Hello boys, can we go here?

Men: No.

TIFs: Oh bother. Thank you fellas anyway. Bye! (◕ᴗ◕✿)

TIMs: Hello girls, can we go here?

Women: No.

TIMs: rapemurderfuckyourapestabkillyoubitches foams at the mouth

Hmmm... I wonder what's different. Hmmm...

For one this isn't even true. There was a case where over 150 LGBT students were escorted out of Iowa state capitol after a group of trans kids refused to leave the men’s restroom and use gender-neutral restrooms. Trans men themselves say in those threads they don't ask cis men before using men's restrooms and locker rooms. I'm a cis woman, I have used the men's restroom a few times, and I don't care what men think. So clearly this rambling came out of nowhere except stereotypes. GC had numerous threads where they say trans men are nice and subservient while trans women are violent and threatening. Since r/gendercritical was banned and Ovarit and s/gendercritical are new, it will be hard for me to pull up threads.

In addition to gender stereotyping, these kind of statements assume that trans men are OK with the way GC treats trans women or that trans men will not stand up for themselves, neither which is the case. Trans men are fighting for the rights to use men's restrooms and locker rooms, be called with the correct pronoun, and they will stand up to transphobia as much as trans women will.

  1. Cite a source where QT claimed dysphoria doesn't exist. I have been citing my sources.

  2. Some females would feel unsafe not allowing trans women in their bathrooms, including me.

  3. Most of my friends believe people should have a right to use the restroom that matches their gender identity and are against misgendering.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

  1. If some understand and some don’t it’s not a gc point lmao

  2. Im sure there’s lots of things transmen are tired of... and gc doesn’t have to care about any of those things to support them maintaining female rights. You keep focusing on this, I’m telling you it doesn’t matter. People can have opinions and say what they want. GC doesn’t support the “trans” aspect of transmen. They support them as females. So all this crap about what gc said or how tm feel about it- we don’t fucking care. We care that transmen have access to their female rights in case they need them. What are you not understanding about that?

  3. You are obviously ill informed if you’ve never seen tras argue that dysphoria isn’t necessary to be trans.

  4. Okay... but WHY would they feel unsafe? WHAT IS THE REASON???? I understand that you are claiming that you and others would feel unsafe- but I’ve asked you a few times to explain how/why you feel unsafe?

  5. I understand what your friends believe. I don’t get why you keep telling me.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You do not get to decide what makes other females unsafe.

I agree, every person can only consent for themselves.

I am a majority rules kind of person.

I don't think we should aspire for a tyranny of the majority, minorities should get their say too.

If the majority of women are OK with males in women's bathrooms, so be it.

They can consent for themselves, but never consent for other women who don't, and if males should be allowed in female bathrooms they should need consent from every woman, not just a majority. And here it seems the "minority" who don't consent is very large, at least 40%. And 40% of all women is a far greater number than the very low number of males who would benefit from gaining entrance to the female bathrooms, thus I think our priority should be the comfort of these women not 0.3 % of the males.