all 24 comments

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Watch the sensible premise that “woman is not a feeling it is a biological reality” get ignored whilst vague notions like gender identity get waved around and pop psychology is treated as a hard science.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Every time I see articles like this I read the comments. There’s always a tra or transwoman who’s going back and forth with everyone. All that ever happens is: the tra/transwoman accuses people of bigotry, miseducation/ignorance, pushing people to suicide, and literal violence, while refusing to back up their claims because “emotional labor/educate yourself”... only to disappear after being asked to define a woman. It’s absurd to me that they rely on this pseudoscience but can’t back any of it up, and then resort to accusing people of hatred for relying on actual proven science that they can’t refute despite being given ample opportunity.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

“Learn some basic science lmao, female means nothing” says the man who thinks that others must prove to him that a thought passing through his head is not in fact science. “Biology is complicated and more than what you learned in fourth grade” some dweeb smirks whilst implying human procreation is a mystery to all.

it’s weird how we’re the ones who don’t comprehend basic science, but they’re the ones demanding intangible emotions over pink and blue be taken as seriously as a reproducible test.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is so far the question no one could answer me. Because by most their definitions - I am not a woman, and I am clearly is.

Other thing why it is bad - laws written without clear definitions can be interpreted in any way at all. For example, if bandit will deliberately wear dress and molets GNC teen girl in women's toilet, then by the law he will be protected from her in women's toilet, which is ridiculous, and is direct consequence of vague laws without clear definition.

[–]DistantGlimmer 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think this gets to the central contradiction in gender identity: There would be 4 options. -

1 "Woman" is defined by biology but then transwomen are not women.

2 There are no differences in gendered behavior between women and men. Sex is a category but only physical and not meaningful in social interaction. Gender is very fluid and not really based on sex. I don't think anyone on either side believes this as if it were the case transwomen should be as safe in men's spaces as women's spaces.

3 Gender is a messy ill-defined blob of social stereotypes that transwomen can try to emulate to "become women". This is the only definition that is logical at all so it is what TRAs are left with. It is anti-feminist and reinforces gender roles You can make it a little less sexist by adding in physical secondary sex characteristics which transwomen can change but it still is misogynistic at the core.

4 "Anyone who says they are a woman is a woman". I don't think this should even be a proper definition as it makes the term woman completely meaningless.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I’m sort of confused why TWAW/TMAM is such a big issue. Maybe when I was younger I might have cared more. It would be nice to be real, but that isn’t a choice we have. I feel like how people treat you and how you feel about yourself should matter a lot more (like not having dysphoria anymore). If people think I’m a woman, is it really the end of the world if I’m actually not? Maybe is different for people for don’t pass, but even then I feel like most people won’t go out of their way to misgender you. It’s just not realistic that everyone will participate and it turns people against us to try to force them too.

Also, like if you break man or woman to the point they are meaningless, doesn’t that hurt what the same people who say TWAW want?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think the idea is that if TWAW, then they have an unquestioned right to access everything meant for females. Sports, jobs, scholarships etc, as well as spaces. No one would be able to speak out against that if it’s accepted. That’s my issue with TWAW. Call yourself whatever you want, lie or lie by omission all you want (except for sex and dating- I see no way to justify that and I never will), ask for pronouns, do whatever you want/need in your personal life- but the claim of TWAW has made sex based oppression something we can’t discuss honestly, I had a whole list here but deleted tldr- it’s made just way too many issues for females, our safety, our language, and our rights. On top of that it just doesn’t really make any logical sense imo. If TWAW then they don’t have dysphoria and they don’t need to “transition” to replicate a female body because the female form wouldn’t equal “woman” TWAW completely defeats the purpose of transitioning and makes the people who say it look hypocritical to me.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Sorry, I feel like I worded that badly. I really mean why it’s such a big issue to trans people. The impact on women is really clear sadly if it means things like access to spaces based on self-ID or being able to speak about sex-based oppression and violence.

That’s interesting about it contradicting the need to transition. I’d never thought of that before.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I got what you meant I just went on a tangent lol. I think it’s a few things, one the unquestioned access TWAW would grant them if accepted, but I also wonder if it’s just an emotional thing, like a need for it to be true? I can’t word it well but i think of the transwomen who claim to be female and I can’t believe they truly believe it themselves. I remember on the reddit sub there was a post where a transwoman snapped and said “we know! We know we aren’t female and we know neovaginas aren’t vaginas! We just say it because it makes us feel better!” And I wonder if it’s a combo of wanting or needing others to see them as women and also needing it to be true internally. I’ve always wondered if any transwomen ever don’t feel aware of being male. Like if any ever reach a point where they aren’t reminded of it in some capacity, if not, I could see the need to try to force it on others and themselves to compensate.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’ve always wondered if any transwomen ever don’t feel aware of being male.

I can’t really speak for anyone else, but I don’t really think of myself as male automatically. I have to make an effort to do it when I participate in these conversations. Especially when I first started participating on the debate sub, but still sometimes now, I need to remind myself I’m not a woman in this conversation. When certain question happen because I want to answer because I feel it’s addressed to me. I don’t know if that makes sense and I think it has more to do with occupying that social role for most of life rather than like having some sort of lady brain. 😂

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Even when things like pregnancy and menstruation and stuff like that comes up, not just online, but irl? I don’t mean to pry, I’m just curious about it. Like, do you consider yourself a feminist or a feminist ally?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s sort of similar in that you have to remind yourself. If someone asks me about my period, I feel like my first instinct is to think about it, but then I remember I don’t get periods. I feel like you can be vague at times without having to tell someone everything. Same with pregnancy. I can say I’m not ready yet, or I want kids, or pregnancy is scary, or talk about my friends who’ve been pregnant and I don’t have to say I can’t get pregnant (because I feel like that’s kind of personal) or lie about it. The pregnancy thing is really hard because you feel like you are broken.

I used to think of myself as a feminist and people think I’m a feminist and I probably won’t tell them I’m not a feminist if they say I am, but after I discovered GC I try to think of myself as an ally.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

It would be nice to be real

Thinking we aren’t real is the root of the hatred against us honestly.

I feel like most people won’t go out of their way to misgender you

You give people way too much credit.

It’s just not realistic that everyone will participate and it turns people against us to try to force them too.

They’re already against us. You just don’t see it because you are stealth. Anyone calling me “he” is against trans people. They just don’t see many of them.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Thinking we aren’t real is the root of the hatred against us honestly.

I don’t feel like it is. I feel like it’s usually some mix of homophobia, transphobia, or discomfort with gender nonconformity (difficult to separate all those things sometimes). Plus, it’s not something we can change. I can’t become a natal female and stop being trans.

You give people way too much credit.

Maybe it has to do with where you are... Like, there are trans people I work with and know various places and people are very respectful of their pronouns. I’m not imagining this. I can’t honestly recall the last time I heard anyone misgendered intentionally.

They’re already against us.

I know we’re a marginalized group and I’m not saying that everyone loves us, but I feel like we are creating a backlash now because of trying to police how people talk and insist different things are exactly the same. There has been lots of progress on attitudes towards trans people over the years. I have the benefit (or curse) of getting to hear what people actually think too and attitudes towards us are so much better than they were 15 or even 10 years ago. It’s only started to get worse again lately.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I feel like it’s usually some mix of homophobia, transphobia, or discomfort with gender nonconformity

That transphobia is coming from thinking we aren’t real. That homophobia is hitting us because they think we are men. You are ignoring the underlying causes.

I can’t honestly recall the last time I heard anyone misgendered intentionally.

I am misgendered more often than not. Daily and often by people who very much know who I am. It’s purposeful and near constant. It’s bound to be better some places but it is absolutely impossible someone see me and not know I am a trans woman and literally everyone but friends will generally misgender me.

I’ve been out about 7 years now and there hasn’t been an improvement generally. People are nicer online about trans people but on the ground I haven’t seen a difference and certainly not a positive move.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Okay, I feel like I get what you are saying, but I don’t see how that’s something we could change. We aren’t actually women or men (or girls or boys) even if we can exist as that in society. I feel like you fight homophobia by teaching people there is nothing wrong being attracted to or having sex with someone who shares your sex and transphobia by teaching people it’s alright to be trans. We aren’t bad even if we aren’t exactly the same. We can be exceptions without pushing everyone to change words.

I’m sorry that is happening to you. There are other places you could go where you would be treated better, but I feel like we’ve had this conversation before.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I consider myself a woman though. If I thought I was some kind of fake I would have just killed my self instead of transitioning. I can’t fathom choosing a life where you don’t consider yourself real. I’m not saying it’s wrong but that’s just something I can’t wrap my head around.

I could move to places that might be a little better but honestly wherever I go it isn’t good. I think you underestimate how many people will go out of their way to harass an obvious trans woman. I think blending for so long has blinded you to how it is for those of us who can’t.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was really stuck on wanting to be real or convincing myself I was for a long time when I was a younger, so I understand feeling that way. It’s possible that maybe it’s easier for me not to feel like it’s important because I don’t feel like my gender is questioned and I would be more defensive if it was. I don’t really know. It’s like impossible to not be influenced by your own experiences with it. I think we just see if different because I’m not believing like the TWAW thing in any way that makes sense. Do you ever worry about the women’s safety issues that can come from that if anyone can say they are trans?

I really do feel like there are places where you would be treated better. 🤷‍♀️

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I mean I’m not saying you are wrong. I can’t speak to your feelings.

Do you ever worry about the women’s safety issues that can come from that if anyone can say they are trans?

I’m anti self id.

I appreciate the thought but honestly I don’t think there is anywhere I could go where I wouldn’t be treated like a freak.

[–]ANIKAHirsch 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's a war on logic. Don't accept their definitions.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is the age-old debate question.

Personally, the nearest I can figure is that womanhood is both a biological and a social category. Like it or not, women and girls are typically grouped together and expected to have at least some social things in common. So I can understand a trans woman wanting to be seen as a woman and included in the female social realm along with making bodily changes to relieve dysphoria.

The usual caveat applies. Not all women are alike. But I don't think there is anyone who would deny there is a female social realm.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I believe there is a female social realm to some degree- the issue I have is, if you’re a male forcing entry into that realm, are you really any different from any other male? Even if they are mistaken for women and treated as such, even if we have all types of superficial commonalities, it is always in my head that transwomen experience those similarities and that treatment through male eyes. If transwomen could respect that and acknowledge that, I’d have no issue socially accepting them as “honorary women”, but when they display even more misogynistic thinking and behavior than the men they claim not to be like, it makes me think that there’s no reason to consider them socially women, because they are using that social stereotyping that (Many) women want to escape. Idk if I’m wording this well, I’m watching this debate and my head is a bit foggy for other reasons lol

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it's the forcing that I have a problem with. The entitlement of some of these younger people is crazy. I feel like decades ago, trans women were happy to be accepted as honorary women. Now many of them seem to be believe they are owed the label of "woman," and demand to be seen as identical to natal women in all circumstances.

But I still feel like the old-school transsexual types exist. They're just quieter. Peaking is one, obviously. There are other public figures who are, too, although they're drowned out by louder voices. I think moderate trans people's voices should be uplifted, and I know I mentioned this elsewhere, but I feel like they would benefit from an organization of some type. That way they can show the world that the trans community is not a hive mind.

[–]IAmSatan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Any definition that does not include biology invalidates the whole basic origin of the trans movement. What is a dysphoric individual transitioning from and to, if biology is irrelevant? They can apparently see what to do to approximate the other sex's characteristics so they DO see the difference. Why not just be happy with one is otherwise?