QT: If someone agreed to compromise with you on everything EXCEPT calling trans women "women" and trans men "men" and share intimate spaces with them, would you be satisfied with this?

submitted by IceColdLover from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

The last point, access to facilities, is the one to which I would object. Denying transitioned trans women access to women's facilities exposes them to public shaming and risk of violence from haters. There few gender neutral facilities. And how would you enforce these rules?

The one exception, in my view, would be prisons: trans women with a history of violence or intimidation should be segregated in their own wing because they pose a substantial risk to the safety of female prisoners. However, nonviolent offenders, such as those who stole evidence of US military criminality, refused to testify in court, and were imprisoned for contempt, are likely low risk and can be accommodated amongst females. Case-by-case risk assessment by custodial officials.

[–]divingrightintowork 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Why are TWs a special exception in a way any other man isn't? Why didn't gay men use women's rest rooms? Why don't effeminite men use women's restrooms? Don't you believe in self-ID?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Trans women who present femme need access to women's bathrooms for the same reason as cis women: shelter from predatory male behaviour that targets women. Trans women get similar attention to cis women, and also risk being bashed by transphobes. They are seeking asylum fro persecution. Transitioned trans women tend to present a lot more femme than effeminate men. So, I guess I am saying that bathroom access should be based on gender expression; not how successful someone is a passing, but evidence of effort. It seems like the most workable compromise.

I support self ID for identity documents only (or even better, ridding identity documents of gender markers). Identity documents are not used for bathroom access.

I wonder which bathroom GNC cis men like makeup artist John Maclean use. He presents very femme.

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Someone will have to define what "transitioned" means and enforce that. What is your definition and how do you see that line being legally enforced in day to day settings?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transitioned has to mean some form of gender expression, that is, enough visible cues that someone is trying to live as a woman. I do not see any way that this can be legally enforced.

[–]penelopekitty 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does one 'live as a woman?'

[–]maldita-sudakafeminist-woman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In Chile, minors between the age of 14-17 need approval of their parents/tutors and "proofs". https://www.bcn.cl/leyfacil/recurso/ley-de-identidad-de-genero Married people also need some additional bureocracy, since same-sex marriage is not legal in Chile. Only single people over the age of 18 can legally transition with 2 witnesses, a max of 2 times in their life. So, third world countries are still more strict legally.