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[–]worried19 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

GNC women and girls are fleeing womanhood in droves for precisely this reason. They're being told they're not real women, that masculinity is a sign they weren't meant to be born female. I was reading reviews of one of my favorite books the other day, and it was disturbing how several people seem to deeply want the butch lesbian main character to be non-female.

I posted this on Ovarit too, but I was looking at reviews of Girl Mans Up by M-E Girard. A lot of reviewers are still convinced the main character Pen is on the trans spectrum despite her denying it outright. One of the reviewers complained about the author seeming like an "older lesbian" (code for TERF) and there was a reviewer who felt that it wasn't nuanced enough in terms of 21st century gender complexity. They really want Pen to be something other than a teenage girl and seem upset that she claims her femaleness and womanhood despite her masculinity.

Pen on how she knows she's not a boy:

"I don't feel wrong inside myself. I don’t feel like I'm someone I shouldn’t be. Only other people make me feel like there's something wrong with me."

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm not speaking of actual transsexuals, but the 4000% increase in natal female young people disavowing womanhood.

If this was inborn and not societally induced, you'd also see a 4000% jump in the number of natal males, but that's not happening.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Trans men have always existed, and their numbers have not increased. I think trans men are now getting more attention and society is becoming more accepting to trans men, so more identify openly. Pretty much like autism. It hasn't increased. People are just becoming more aware. I read articles from the 90s involving trans people and they're always referred to as cross dressers.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Completely untrue. There is a huge spike of natal female young people identifying as trans, and this does not line up with a similar increase among natal male young people.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6172097/Investigation-ordered-number-transitioning-referrals-increase-four-thousand-cent.html

There was no such thing as "non-binary" 30 years ago, and any natal female transsexuals were going to be strictly homosexual, butch lesbians with severe sex and genital dysphoria. There were no "gay trans boys." This is a population that has zero historical precedent.

But that was not even the point of my post. I was talking about the eagerness of some trans people and non-trans people to view GNC women as automatically trans or potentially trans, with repeated pressuring to consider if they might be transgender. Take the book I mentioned. Pen is a fictional character. Pen is a butch lesbian who explicitly denies being trans in the book. Yet there are multiple readers who persist in calling her trans, saying they still think she might be on the trans spectrum, even if the very words of the character herself deny it.

Here's one reviewer:

I'm glad this book exists. Published in 2016, it follows Pen, a high school student coming into both her identity as a lesbian and a more visible expression of gender nonconformity. It's one of those books that seems like it should be actively participating in some of the wider conversations we're having as a society about gender, but decidedly does not engage with it. The novel acknowledges that transgender people exists and stays somewhat ambiguous (in my personal opinion) in Pen's personal stake. Yes, Pen identifies as a woman throughout, but also seems to be somewhat confused by what it means to be trans.

Pen says: “I don’t feel wrong inside myself. I don’t feel like I’m someone I shouldn’t be. Only other people make me feel like there’s something wrong with me.”

Now, it's possible that this should be taken at face value (since that does reflect a common expectation of trans folks) but.... that's the entire point of what trans people try to impart, that the issue isn't that they "feel wrong" but that other people make them feel wrong. (I say this a trans masc nonbinary person).

So there you have it. This "trans masc nonbinary person" does not feel wrong. Others make this reviewer feel wrong. And this means that the person is trans, rather than simply a gender nonconforming woman. Which is exactly what feminism is supposed to fight against, the harmful and regressive idea that there's one right way to be a girl or woman.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Completely untrue. There is a huge spike of natal female young people identifying as trans, and this does not line up with a similar increase among natal male young people.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6172097/Investigation-ordered-number-transitioning-referrals-increase-four-thousand-cent.html

Your source is a tabloid. Heck, even if it were true, you should be listening to actual trans men anyway.

There was no such thing as "non-binary" 30 years ago, and any natal female transsexuals were going to be strictly homosexual, butch lesbians with severe sex and genital dysphoria. There were no "gay trans boys." This is a population that has zero historical precedent.

Non binary means any gender other than male or female. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

From Wikipedia:

In different cultures, a third or fourth gender may represent very different things. To Native Hawaiians and Tahitians, Māhū is an intermediate state between man and woman, or a "person of indeterminate gender". Some traditional Diné Native Americans of the Southwestern US acknowledge a spectrum of four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, and masculine man. The term "third gender" has also been used to describe the hijras of India who have gained legal identity, fa'afafine of Polynesia, and sworn virgins.

While found in a number of non-Western cultures, concepts of "third", "fourth", and "some" gender roles are still somewhat new to mainstream western culture and conceptual thought. The concept is most likely to be embraced in the modern LGBT or queer subcultures.

But that was not even the point of my post.

You said in your post "GNC women and girls are fleeing womanhood in droves for precisely this reason." Have you actually spoken to the trans men and asked why they choose to identify as male?

I was talking about the eagerness of some trans people and non-trans people to view GNC women as automatically trans or potentially trans, with repeated pressuring to consider if they might be transgender.

I think that happens to some extent.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your source is a tabloid.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1018407/gender-transition-treatment-investigation-penny-mordaunt

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/16/minister-orders-inquiry-4000-per-cent-rise-children-wanting

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inquiry-into-surge-in-gender-treatment-ordered-by-penny-mordaunt-b2ftz9hfn

Heck, even if it were true, you should be listening to actual trans men anyway.

Are you serious? We should freaking ignore a 4000% spike in females no longer wanting to be female?

Equalities Minister Penny Mordaunt has asked officials to investigate the reasons for the dramatic 4,415 percent increase – and wants to know if the internet could be influencing the way girls think about the issue. Figures indicate the number of children referred for gender treatment such as hormone injections has increase from 97 in 2009/10 to 2,519 in 2017/18.

Non binary means any gender other than male or female.

There was no such thing in Western culture 30 years ago. People were either male or female. There was no encouragement for females, let alone straight or bisexual females, to consider themselves non-women. Transsexuality was a very rare thing, with medical transition undertaken only by people with severe sex and genital dysphoria when all other methods had failed. Transsexuals were almost always exclusively extremely gender nonconforming homosexuals.

You said in your post "GNC women and girls are fleeing womanhood in droves for precisely this reason." Have you actually spoken to the trans men and asked why they choose to identify as male?

Of course, I've had plenty of conversations with trans men.

I think that happens to some extent.

But you don't think it has anything to do with the 4000% spike in young natal female people disavowing girlhood and womanhood? How many of those young people were children with severe childhood physical dysphoria? How many of them hated their vaginas growing up? How many of them were even gender nonconforming at all?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrnJOSk-3kA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTQngMEDocw

Do you even know what the atmosphere is like for GNC women? Are you a GNC woman who rejects femininity? Do people constantly call into question your womanhood, the way they do to the women in the videos I linked above?