The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

FYI:

Trans women can breast feed. Not as easily as cis women but they can't. Saying their breast are purely asthetic isnt correct.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

The liquid discharge that some male nipples secrete is not breast milk and will not nourish a baby.

It's not comparable and fallacious to compare the two. Transwomens' breasts are indeed purely aesthetic.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161151-transgender-woman-is-first-to-be-able-to-breastfeed-her-baby/

I feel like it’s sort of a weird thing to do (especially in that case since the child’s biological mother was their partner and perfectly capable of doing that without medical intervention), but there was a article about it awhile back. I don’t really think that matters for whether someone considers transwomen to be women though.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Ahhhh so this one trans person required an intense experimental medical regimen to produce nowhere near the amount or content that a woman produces, has unknown effects on the trans person and the child, and has not had its nutritional content verified. The article even says this practice is not recommended.

This is not something that naturally happens like with a female, and I wouldn't feed my child with this male lactation. In fact, the transwoman in your article didn't even feed their kid with it.

I think my point still stands, that for all intents and purposes the secondary sex characteristics that transwomen develop are not linked to female reproductive capacity, the very reason there characteristics exist in the first place. In transwomen they are largely if not entirely aesthetic, how could they not be?

A transwoman will never have to worry about the same sex-related issues that a woman will. As for gender stereotypes, these (unfortunately) arose because of sex differences. Yes, passing transwomen will likely experience some forms of misogyny. But they can never experience the full scope of being female.

I don't think it's wrong to say transwomen are transwomen, not women, as we clearly have different life experiences and challenges, both psychologically and physically.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Okay, I think we basically agree. I just wanted to make that small correction. Transwomen’s experiences are that and I aren’t going to be the same as females even if there some shared experiences (if someone passes). It can be it’s own thing and I feel like that is fine. It’s hard not to feel a little hurt if your body is reduced to some purely aesthetic thing though. I’m a person whose body does the same things for them that other people’s do, except for reproduction. I understand the point you are making though.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I see your perspective too and it was interesting to read the article. I just don't really understand why many transwomen seem to think they literally are women indistinguishable from female women, because females are indeed oppressed throughout the world according to sex, and no amount of self-identification or medical treatment will truly change this. I understand the dysphoria of wanting to be the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean sex is arbitrary and doesn't exist beyond gender presentation.

I'm not quite sure what your point is by saying your body does what everyone else's does except reproduction. Because yes, regardless of sex, we are all human beings with certain capacities. Healthy, we are able to move and eat, etc. But, it is sex capacities that differentiate between males and females, measurably. And these differences in sexual functioning are base to our experiences in our society.

Also, a woman who gets a breast job does so for aesthetic purposes, as does a transwoman. In either case they both have functional human bodies. Is it hurtful to say this surgery or hormonal treatment is aesthetic? Isn't it just truthful? It may make both feel better, which is good and is their choice and their right, but that doesn't mean it's not about aesthetics.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

It’s not about aesthetics though. I’m way uglier having transitioned. So from an aesthetic standpoint it would have been a pure negative. However I am much happier and more comfortable in my body. It’s a matter of mental health not aesthetics and treating it like a breast augmentation is at best dismissive.

[–]comradeconradical 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Aesthetics doesnt mean beautiful.

You prefer the aesthetics of a female-looking body. The shape of having breasts rather than a flat chest.

The women who get breast augmentation also do so due to body issues and adverse effect on mental wellbeing. I can turn it around and say you sound dismissive of them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Aesthetics

a set of principles concerned with the nature and appreciation of beauty, especially in art. the branch of philosophy that deals with the principles of beauty and artistic taste. Definitions from Oxford Languages

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Rich to have someone from a community that aims to change dictionary definitions quoting the dictionary lol

But I am obviously not referring to the 'aesthetic' branch of philosophy, I'm using it as one would its synonyms, such as 'form', 'manner', 'style', 'view', 'image'.

I think my argument is pretty clearly not about beauty but about form. In other words, transwomen who want breasts do so for the form of breasts, not the reproductive functionality. That is, they are not true secondary sex characteristics as they relate to sex.