QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Where did the term cis come from, though?

Groups can generally come up with labels for theirselves, but not labels for other people. No?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Oh, I see. You are objecting not to the concept, just to the label "cis". I see your point.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

FWIW she may well be 'cis' but unless she says as much, or you're in a trans-dominant space, you like probably shouldn't assume or call her that without checking - certainly if it is expected to use the preferred pronouns of someone even if they're not around and I don't believe they're the sex they think they are, no? (Also hi! I don't know your user name so I don't know your exact stances, but I'd be happy to hear them :) )

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Noted. I have previously assumed that "cis" was just a broad description but I guess it can be taken as an identity label and should be treated with more respect. I am already in trouble for referring to people by their biological sex. :-(

My stance is that I am broadly trans positive, but believe in immutable binary sex, and that trans people change only sex characteristics. While I support self ID for documents (or just omit gender markers), I think inclusion of trans women in women's sport should be evidence-based to ensure that it is safe and fair.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Well hi and welcome! I'm happy to have you here - may I ask how you ended up here? It's def't a pretty random space for someone to end up given the history and how it ended up on saidit.

For what it's worth a lot of GC people could arguably be "Trans positive," if you were to ask them a number of positive / negative questions about their beliefs regarding trans ppl (feel free to ask me a few, I'm curious now!).

Certainly a lot of what you said isn't hugely disagreeable to me, I'd likely seek some sort of middle ground on a lot of them - I also believe a lot in libertarianism which comes at a lot of things from a slightly different stance (like right of affiliation, and groups getting to set their own terms).

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I am an old-school liberal, pretty much a social libertarian and economic centrist. I like free speech, democracy, and the middle ground. I am here to help find workable compromises. I trained as a scientist, and am a sceptic, free thinker, atheist, and believe that there is an objective reality that we all share.

I realised over 20 years ago that I was what we now call nonbinary. Last year, I started engaging with the trans community on social media. What a horrible experience. The so-called "trans community" turned out to be a nest of authoritarian extremists who deny biological reality and suppress any dissent. I found out about identitarianism, wokeness, grievance culture, and their pervasive influence on the authoritarian left. I started hanging out on r/rightwinglgbt and r/uncensoredlgbt. I had enough karma on r/gc to edit the wiki. I was shocked when the banwave hit all my favourite subs and cleared out my inbox, so I came here.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

and believe that there is an objective reality that we all share.

You left out how the current trans movement is pretty much founded on constructivism, which I'm guessing you don't vibe with either - now ask me some questions to figure out if I'm trans positive or not! (I mean, if you want).

But for real sounds like we could get on ok enough and I'm glad you wandered over here, your post made me smile / laugh.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Thanks! My views are a hybrid of evolutionary biology and constructivism: each faction has part of the elephant, but could learn more by combining their perspectives. Human beings are too complicated for simplistic reductionism.

My question: what is your opinion on JK Rowling's opinion piece on sex an gender issues?

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hrm if it's not too lazy, can you help me out if that came before or after her TERF wars piece? I'm guessing after?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Or are they the same piece?

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Hrm it looks like she may have replaced "Terf Wars" With that article and they're overall fairly similar?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry, I am not sure.

My take on her piece is that, while I disagree with some of her points and think some are transphobic, I do not think she is hateful, and I support her right to freedom of expression. While she seems to have compassion for trans women, I do not consider someone who wants to keep trans women out of women's spaces to be trans positive.