QT: What is the difference between a butch woman and a trans man?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I doubt there are any dysphoric, GNC lesbians who identify as "cis".

Check out Leoaica Motanelul on YouTube. Leigh is female, transitioned (on T), had top surgery to reach her goal of a boyish appearance, detransitioned (off T), now identifies as a woman, and is married to a woman. She describes being happy with her gender nonconforming appearance. I assume she was dysphoric beforehand. And she meets anyone's definition of a lesbian. I think Leigh ticks all of your boxes. Her story is fascinating and made me reassess some of my assumptions about gender. Very clear and thoughtful. Late 20s or 30-is, IIRC; not some teen trender. She was also interviewed by Benjamin A Boyce.

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm familiar with her and think she's great, but I can't imagine she would ever refer to herself as "cis."

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

She is female and identifies as a woman, therefore is cis by definition. She might have used the term "cis" in one of her earlier detrans videos but I am not sure.

[–]worried19[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Cis" is a label imposed by those who believe in gender identity.

I am female and acknowledge myself as a woman, even though I do not identify with womanhood. I would not call myself "cis" simply because I state my biological sex. If anything, I'm exactly the opposite. I am not "on the same side" as the female gender. I hate everything associated with the female gender.

Now I'm not one of those who believes "cis" is a slur, but from my perspective it makes zero sense to call an extremely GNC woman "cis." I'm not sure about Leoaica, but I personally have rejected gender and go strictly by biological sex.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was referring to "cis" as the concept and neglected the connotation of adherence to gender theory. Sorry about that!

As far as I know, Leigh's views are currently close to your views: she seems to reject most ideas of gender as they might apply to her. She had an older video discussing cis women who have top surgery, so seems comfortable with the term, but I think you are right that she has never the term "cis" in reference to herself.

In my ontology, it makes perfect sense to describe a female who identifies as a woman as cis, even one such as Leigh who is extremely GNC including surgery and testosterone effects. My definition of trans is based solely on a mismatch between sex and gender identity, otherwise it would include many GNC people who are comfortable with their bodies and being perceived as their natal sex, such as crossdressers. "Gender diverse" includes all these people.

However, you raise an important point. There must be a third option between trans and cis: missing data, such as unknown, undecided, or withheld. I do not see how I can describe someone as cis or trans if they do not have a sense of their own gender. I have previously thought of these people as agender, but I am now not so sure.