Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Transmen choosing to ignore the ramifications of being female and how that makes them members of the second sex, beards or no, does not mean that transmen are not protected by things like shelters for females, access to abortions and birth control, or the condemnation of rape culture and the selling of female sexuality.

Transmen benefit from feminism regardless of whether they acknowledge it. Listening to transmen is done, but the things transmen want are largely harmful to women. (Gender deification, transing kids, elimination of sex based spaces)

Why would we give in to demands for harm to us to please people?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Transmen choosing to ignore the ramifications of being female and how that makes them members of the second sex, beards or no, does not mean that transmen are not protected by things like shelters for females, access to abortions and birth control, or the condemnation of rape culture and the selling of female sexuality.

Yes trans men need access to abortions but not female shelters because they aren't female gender identity-wise. Their sexuality is no longer female and both men and women can be raped and rape culture should be condemned for everyone.

Transmen benefit from feminism regardless of whether they acknowledge it.

I'm talking about gender critical feminism in particular, not all feminism. Trans men, and even trans women, benefit from most branches of feminism.

Listening to transmen is done, but the things transmen want are largely harmful to women. (Gender deification, transing kids, elimination of sex based spaces)

You can respect trans men's gender identity without worshiping it. Maybe a compromise would be that only men's spaces are turned to everyone's spaces and women's spaces will be exclusively for people born women. I do oppose indiscriminately transing kids or transing kids because they are GNC, but some trans men had dysphoria since childhood. Also, in the US, you can't start hormones until 16, and you can't have SRS until 18.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also, in the US, you can't start hormones until 16, and you can't have SRS until 18.

This is untrue. There is no lower age limit for hormones. Johanna Olson-Kennedy regularly prescribes testosterone to 12 year olds. The youngest I've found is 8 years old. A 8 year old female child was included in the following study about testosterone:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/3f4f51_a929d049f7fb46c7a72c4c86ba43869a.pdf

Olson-Kennedy gives testosterone to 13 and 14 year-old girls “frequently” and to 12 year-olds “sometimes.” She has absolutely no concern if a girl later regrets the permanent change of voice and male-pattern body and facial hair, along with potentially compromised fertility and sexual function.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/johanna-olson-kennedy-gender-affirmative-approach

Jazz Jennings was given sexual reassignment surgery at 17. Olson-Kennedy also regularly recommends children for mastectomies as young as 13:

Olson had 68 surgically diminished girls fill out her “novel” scale between one and five years after their surgery. Thirty-three of these girls were under 18 at the time of surgery. Two were only 13 years old, and five were only 14.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/09/12/u-s-doctors-performing-double-mastectomies-healthy-13-year-old-girls

Odeneal: How many patients have you referred for the chest surgery?

Olson-Kennedy: Probably about 200.

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2019/12/09/the-tragedy-of-the-trans-child

The reason I'm linking these is because I've seen far too many activists claim this never happens, that no child is touched until their 16th or 18th birthday.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for sharing these links. I was under the impression that Jazz was 18 when she had SRS. Anyway, I would like more follow up research. Do these kids regret it in later life? Would trans men like to have transitioned as kids?

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, she was 17. And she was 11 when she was put on estrogen. She was given estrogen without ever having virilized, so that's automatic sterilization right there. That's incredibly young. It's also why her surgery fell apart immediately after leaving the hospital. She had genitals the size of a child that age. She didn't have enough material for a regular vaginoplasty.

She was also 3 years old when first brought to a gender therapist. Poor kid has spent her entire life in the limelight. I feel terrible for Jazz and I will defend her against anything negative said about her because she had absolutely zero choice in what happened to her.

Anyway, I would like more follow up research. Do these kids regret it in later life? Would trans men like to have transitioned as kids?

We know there are plenty of desisters and destransitioners, some of whom started in middle school. What matters to me is whether these children are able to give informed consent. I do not think 11 and 12 and 13 year olds can give meaningful consent to permanent sterilization or irreversible surgeries. I'm not crazy about transitioning older teenagers either, but I'd prefer informed consent (even without an actual diagnosis) for everyone on their 18th birthday rather than what's happening now.