QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

The question you're asking only comes up when you ridgedly apply biology to both culture and language. While trans women aren't female and trans men aren't male they can still move through society as men or women respectively. Do we have a shared cultural understanding of what a man is? Yes. This understanding is, like any shared knowledge vague and no individual will conform to it completely. Even if we reduced cultural understanding to sex, then trans people could still exist. The bar for passing would be a lot higher admitetly but that's beside the point.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The shared clultural understanding that transwomen rely on is based on gender stereotypes though. Passing is based on appearing as the sex based on performing gender stereotypes. In a genderless world, people would still have dysphoria or autogynephilia or whatever and maybe some would still believe they were "born in the wrong body" but I don't see how they'd pass without gender stereotypes to rely on

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I have two major questions in this case.

1) what is a stereotype and when is it sexist 2) what would a post stereotype world look like.

Also. If a trans woman transitions early she could easily pass, the later the more effort is needed, but still possible, even without coding

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think any characteristic assumed to apply to a group of people is a stereotype. I mean obviously taking voice lessons to try to sound more "womanly" is way less misogynistic than copying sissy porn but both are attaching social characteristics to biological sex and therefore upholding gender roles.

I almost feel like to move past gender we would need to attach way less social importance or perhaps even none at all to biological sex. Like people could see boiological sex like hair color. Something you notice when you meet someone but don't really make a big deal of or change how yo see the person at all. I admit that's going to be hard to achieve as biological sex is such an important part of human life (and GC theory stresses this importance of course) it's going to be hard to get to a pont where we just do not attach stereotypes to it at all - even positive or neutral ones. I think this may be one of the hardest things about abolishing gender actually. (would be interested in other GC opinions on this actually).

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks. That was really helpful.

I think the core of my confusion was a misunderstanding of the word stereotype. In my mind a stereotype is something that is enforced. Where you expect everyone to be like that. Things that exist without expectation are patterns. The voice example fits great here. The voice thing is a pattern. Just because deep female voices are rare compared to higher ones. Vice versa for males.

The stereotype in media, that certain people sound a certain way doesn't really help. But I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Tbese patterns would, at least imo still exist in a post gender world. Though we may not now what exactly these patterns would look like.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Pattern is something that IS happening and always or often repeating. Stereotype is something that you THINK is happening. Even definitions are "stereotype is an over-generalized belief about a particular category of something or someone" and "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing".

If you see that europeans on average are taller than asians - it is pattern. If you say that asians are all good in math and nolifers - it is stereotype (and a racist one).

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's exactly my point. Patterns exist. So they can be used for passing regardless of expectations.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I get it that you seem to think stereotypes are negative things but they don't have to be ( see the "model minority" thing for example) It still puts pressure on people to conform to the way they are "supposed to be" according to the stereotype and still limits their ability to operate comfortably outside of that. The voice example is an interesting one because it's at least largely physically caused. Differences like that would exist in a post-gender world (just like differences in things like athletic ability). I guess it would just fall on people in that world to make sure that physical differences between sexes didn't lead to a new set of gender differences. It actually made me kind of depressed to think about though as your prior comment made me realize just how hard it will be to eradicate social differences between the way men and women are treated in society.