QT but all can comment - How would you refute the argument that The phrase "transwomen are women" presupposes that there is a cultural role for women to fill?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

The question you're asking only comes up when you ridgedly apply biology to both culture and language. While trans women aren't female and trans men aren't male they can still move through society as men or women respectively. Do we have a shared cultural understanding of what a man is? Yes. This understanding is, like any shared knowledge vague and no individual will conform to it completely. Even if we reduced cultural understanding to sex, then trans people could still exist. The bar for passing would be a lot higher admitetly but that's beside the point.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The shared cultural understandings of man and woman outside of sex is pure sexism though. Why on earth would anyone want to maintain that over the realities of sex that impact day to day life?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Our current understanding is sexist. I have already addressed that even if reduced to sex, the concept of cultural understanding and belonging would not change. Just the bar for passing.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So how are transwomen women except via sexist understandings of womanhood?

Does passing make a transwoman a woman somehow?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Your questions seem strange to me. It seems like the prerequisite for these is that any understanding of womanhood, even one based in sex, is sexist as long is it exists on a social level. Unfortunately it's impossible to eliminate the social level.

Yes it does. Not biologically mind you, but socially.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No, I’m just confused. Isn’t any understanding of man and woman not based purely on sex sexism?

Surely we can eliminate garbage ideas like women are anything other than adult human females.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How? Patterns exist. You can eliminate the harmful mindset that is sexism but not the pattern.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

How much of the pattern will remain without the mindset? How much of those patterns are influenced by gendered socialisation? How many are inherent?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

None are inherent. All of them are currently influenced by gendered society. But would they die down if this external influence ceased? I don't think so. Trends would still exist. Take a big group of people and you'll always see a pattern.

We might not be able to predict what this pattern looks like, but its quite certain that it would exist. Or do you think that everything would be more or less homogeneous?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No idea but I doubt anyone would still be claiming skirts are more female.