QT/Trans/TRA - What reciprocal courtesy or labor do you extend to GC who will honor your pronouns? (but everyone can comment)

submitted by divingrightintowork from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]firebird 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Calling a trans woman a man is every bit as hateful.

That would mean that hatred is the intent if using that word, like it is with the homophobic slur you gave as an example. It isn't.

And you are saying “ well I’m going to call you that because it’s not an insult because I say it isn’t. And how dare you try to control my speech.”

Not what I was saying. Not sure why you care about the nuance of the absence or presence of a space between trans and woman, but when it comes to my words you can throw all nuance out the window and twist it into anything you like.

Any other label on any other group in that scenario and you would readily agree that the person using the objectionable term was in the wrong.

Not "any other label". Labels specifically designed to harm people. I'm sure plenty of people consider "fat" to be an insult, but I wouldn't automatically label someone using the label to be in the wrong.

You can’t have civil discourse with people who can’t even give basic courtesy of not openly insulting you.

If one side needs that word to be able to voice their perspective, you can't just call it an insult and blame the other side for not being able to have a debate. You make the entirety of the debate on this topic impossible based on the grounds of something entirely emotional.

It is at once a denial of agency

You can't deny something that wasn't there to begin with. You have no agency when it comes to sex, and TRAs keep saying that there is no agency involved in gender either.

a demand we define ourselves by our sex

Sex is important in some ways, and when it comes to those ways, it is important to define people by sex, yes.

a challenge to the legitimacy of trans people at all

How so? A transgender person is transgender because of their sex. That's the whole point.

a call to behave properly as our sex

That's the exact opposite of what GC people call for.

an intended insult

It's not, I told you a hundred times before. You may consider it an insult yourself, but that does not make it an intended insult.

an effort to do mental harm by triggering dysphoria

Again, assuming that there is some harmful intent behind someone using the word 'man', instead of thinking that maybe they have something bigger than that they're trying to say.

defining by an unpleasant medical history or at best body image issue

Then you should have an issue with the term "trans woman" as well.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That would mean that hatred is the intent if using that word, like it is with the homophobic slur you gave as an example. It isn't.

It is. You don’t call someone something they find that insulting on accident or without malice.

Not "any other label". Labels specifically designed to harm people. I'm sure plenty of people consider "fat" to be an insult, but I wouldn't automatically label someone using the label to be in the wrong.

So you are fine with someone calling someone fat even though they know they would prefer not to be addressed that way?

You make the entirety of the debate on this topic impossible based on the grounds of something entirely emotional.

No you make the debate impossible because you refuse even basic courtesy of not openly insulting the opposite side.

Then you should have an issue with the term "trans woman" as well.

Not at all. It’s my present and I embrace it. You want me defined by a deeply unpleasant past.

I’ve given you seven reasons why it’s an insult. You asked for an explanation and there it is. You know very well it’s an insult to call a trans women a man. Every time. 100 percent. You just don’t care. And whatever you are a free person, but you can’t expect beneficial dialogue when you openly insult the other people involved.

[–]firebird 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

It is. You don’t call someone something they find that insulting on accident or without malice.

Just because you have decided this, doesn't make it so. Take me as an example. ESL. Did not know the importance of a simple space. Could have called someone a "transwoman" without knowing that they found it to be incredibly insulting.

So you are fine with someone calling someone fat even though they know they would prefer not to be addressed that way?

If it's the truth, then yes.

No you make the debate impossible because you refuse even basic courtesy of not openly insulting the opposite side.

We have been debating this one word that you consider an insult the entire time, and I have not used it against you once. I have done you this 'courtesy', now you do me one by not accusing me of things I obviously didn't do.

Not at all. It’s my present and I embrace it. You want me defined by a deeply unpleasant past.

I don't "want" to define you by anything. None of use have a choice in this, we're all defined by the exact same thing.

You know very well it’s an insult to call a trans women a man.

So you're accusing me of lying.

You just don’t care.

Stop assuming what other people think and feel. You're obviously not good at it.

And whatever you are a free person, but you can’t expect beneficial dialogue when you openly insult the other people involved.

Again, I have not used this word you consider an insult against you, even though I don't agree that it's an insult. Still, I haven't gotten a beneficial dialogue. Instead you have accused me multiple times of things I did not say or do. Clearly, you agree that this is not my fault because I have played by the rules. The only other person left in this conversation is you.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hi Firebird! I haven't seen you around here - Circling was otherwise known as Masksbehindmasks, they eventually got banned on the old GCdQT sub for reasons I don't entirely agree with - but as you can tell they're quite unhappy and self absorbed and are incapable of empathy or understanding/connecting with other lines of thinking. Just don't get too caught up with them :)

[–]firebird 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well now it all makes sense, I can't believe I didn't realize this was masks.

Thanks for pointing it out!

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol no worries.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Could have called someone a "transwoman" without knowing that they found it to be incredibly insulting.

Many wouldn’t. I don’t mind certainly. But generally most prefer trans women to transwoman.

We have been debating this one word that you consider an insult the entire time, and I have not used it against you once. I have done you this 'courtesy', now you do me one by not accusing me of things I obviously didn't do.

And that’s why I am still talking to you. If you had called me a Man I would have just said goodnight and muted the post.

I don't "want" to define you by anything. None of use have a choice in this, we're all defined by the exact same thing.

I certainly hope not. If I thought I was stuck being defined by who I was born I would have simply killed myself rather than transition. I refuse to let the accident of birth define me in the world Espescially when it is so deeply objectionable.

So you're accusing me of lying. You just don’t care. Stop assuming what other people think and feel. You're obviously not good at it.

If you know someone is insulted by a term and use it anyway you must not care. Otherwise you wouldn’t use the term. You can make excuses or spin reasons but at its core you are choosing to knowingly hurt someone and that is an act without care.

Again, I have not used this word you consider an insult against you, even though I don't agree that it's an insult.

I didn’t say you had. This is the indefinite you. As in “One cannot expect” not you personally. As I said above if you have called me a man we wouldn’t still be talking. But you are defending the position. I’ve explained to you both that it is harmful and why. You continue to defend its use. How does that not speak to a lack of care?

[–]firebird 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Many wouldn’t. I don’t mind certainly. But generally most prefer trans women to transwoman.

You missed the point.

And that’s why I am still talking to you.

You are not talking to me, you are talking over me. You falsely accuse me, twist my words, claim you know my intentions when you clearly don't.

I certainly hope not. If I thought I was stuck being defined by who I was born I would have simply killed myself rather than transition. I refuse to let the accident of birth define me in the world Espescially when it is so deeply objectionable.

It still defines you, you just have managed to find a way to make peace with it. Which is great, but let's not lie about it. And I can understand that you may find it 'deeply objectionable', but again, that doesn't mean it's the truth or that anyone else has to agree with it.

If you know someone is insulted by a term and use it anyway you must not care. Otherwise you wouldn’t use the term.

Or something else is more important than that person's feelings. That does not mean someone doesn't care.

But you are defending the position. I’ve explained to you both that it is harmful and why. You continue to defend its use. How does that not speak to a lack of care?

So it's not just about not calling you a certain word. Now I also have to agree with you on this, otherwise it must mean I simply don't care. It's not enough to show that I care by honouring a request that I openly disagree with, oh no, now I also have to give up my own opinions in favour of someone else's.

You're on a debate sub. If you think people disagreeing with you means they must not care at all, or that they even want to harm you, you're not going to be having a great time here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And I can understand that you may find it 'deeply objectionable', but again, that doesn't mean it's the truth or that anyone else has to agree with it.

I’m not saying you have to agree. I’m saying labeling me by a past that I don’t consider me is hurtful and insulting.

So it's not just about not calling you a certain word. Now I also have to agree with you on this, otherwise it must mean I simply don't care. It's not enough to show that I care by honouring a request that I openly disagree with, oh no, now I also have to give up my own opinions in favour of someone else's. You're on a debate sub. If you think people disagreeing with you means they must not care at all, or that they even want to harm you, you're not going to be having a great time here.

That’s not my position at all, i don’t care whether someone agrees with me, I care that they don’t openly insult me and expect to still have productive dialogue. My point is you are defending the practice of calling us men even though you haven’t done it. Chooseing to hurt people shows you don’t care they are hurt and you haven’t done that but you are still defending the practice. So at least academically you are arguing a point that is encouraging harm.

[–]firebird 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

As it turns out, I have already tried talking to you about some similar stuff, but on the old sub. We didn't find any common ground then either, so I think it's for the best if we just leave it at this.