QT/Trans/TRA - What reciprocal courtesy or labor do you extend to GC who will honor your pronouns? (but everyone can comment)

submitted by divingrightintowork from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Being willing to have civil debate at all? Calling me a man is plainly and simply an insult. It’s a fundamental breach of civility and I will never have reasonable or productive dialogue if someone can’t show the basic human decency of not willfully insulting me.

[–]firebird 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

When descriptive terms become insults, debate on this topic becomes useless in general. Unless you have an idea for what other terms should be used instead of the usual 'man' and 'woman'?

I would also like to add that there's a vital difference in saying that you feel insulted by someone calling you a man, and in claiming that this person wilfully insulted you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I don’t object to neutral address like they/them or names.

They are willfully insulting me. No one can mistake me for anything but a trans woman and they know perfectly well that means man would be an insult. It’s not innocent.

[–]firebird 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Neither of those options is a real replacement for 'man' or 'woman' though. Which is what I was looking for.

To know that someone is wilfully insulting you, they either have to tell you, or you have to be able to read minds. When someone calls you a man when you are clearly a trans woman, there are other possible reasons and it's not necessarily because they want to hurt you.

This is what I meant in my previous comment. If you want a debate to happen on this topic, this is going to have to involve some things that might not be fun to hear. Which is probably the case for both sides, I might add. And the words man and woman will have to be included, because they are simply among the most vital words in this conversation.

Just consider the fact that you just referred to yourself as a trans woman. That would be out of the question as well, if 'man' and 'woman' are insults.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

<Neither of those options is a real replacement for 'man' or 'woman' though. Which is what I was looking for.>

Person, trans woman, transgender woman, hell even transwoman. Shit, transexual is a gross term but still better than man.

At best they are knowingly insulting me. They know it will be taken as an insult and know it will be hurtful. To still sue it is willful harm, whatever polish you wish to put to it.

I am a trans woman. Man isn’t an insult to cis men or trans women. Woman isn’t an insult to women. But man is 100 percent always and forever an insult to trans women. There is no way around it. It is one of the worst things you could call us. I would rather be called a deviant freak than a man.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am female, I don't feel insulted when people call me a man, So I guess that's not really a woman thing huh?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You should be, since that’s why people knowingly call women men, to try to insult them.

But some women are some aren’t. Just as there are some quisling trans women like Hayton who wouldn’t object to man because they’ve made an identity of hating themselves. So it’s not even universal for trans women.

[–]firebird 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Those aren't actually replacements in the literal sense, but I'll respond to them anyway.

Person

Everyone is a person. Of course it's the safest option available and maybe it's good enough for you and me, but I've encountered plenty of people who aren't satisfied with neutral options. I've also seen it used as the non-binary alternative for man or woman.

trans woman, transgender woman, hell even transwoman

Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker but I simply don't see the distinction. Don't they all mean the same?

transexual is a gross term

Not all trans people agree on that though. Who should I even follow on this?

They know it will be taken as an insult and know it will be hurtful. To still sue it is willful harm

Again, if people have to stop using it, a debate on this topic simply can't happen. People have to simply give in on a certain point without even being able to discuss that, and I simply don't think that's right especially not since it is based on someone's personal feelings and opinions on the matter.

whatever polish you wish to put to it

You are dismissing other people's concerns, lived experiences, what they wish to talk about in this debate and actual, real concepts as "polish". If you want to come across like wanting debate and not like you just want people to do as you want them to do, then this is not the way to go about it.

I would rather be called a deviant freak than a man.

You'll have to explain this one to me. You'd rather be called something that is always an insult, than something that is just a descriptive term for half the world's population?

Edit: Wanted to quickly add a reply to your comment further down the thread: It's honestly a bit weird to tell people what they should be insulted by, and say that someone who simply does not agree with you must be filled with self-hatred. So far you haven't even provided any objective arguments, it's all subjective and based on feelings.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker but I simply don't see the distinction. Don't they all mean the same?

It’s nuanced trans women can be seen as a short form of transgender woman or an emphasis of the trans umbrella. Transgender woman is more neutral, transwoman is a something some gc people started to not call us men but make a point of not having the space so trans isn’t just treated as a “type of woman” but a separate thing.

Not all trans people agree on that though. Who should I even follow on this?

We all agree it’s better than man.

Again, if people have to stop using it, a debate on this topic simply can't happen. People have to simply give in on a certain point without even being able to discuss that, and I simply don't think that's right especially not since it is based on someone's personal feelings and opinions on the matter.

I’ve given you multiple alternatives. If you can talk about gay men without calling them fags, you can talk about trans women without calling them men.

You are dismissing other people's concerns, lived experiences, what they wish to talk about in this debate and actual, real concepts as "polish". If you want to come across like wanting debate and not like you just want people to do as you want them to do, then this is not the way to go about it.

If someone can’t make the base level courtesy of not calling me something they know very well I consider a Prime and powerful insult, I don’t want to debate them. It won’t be fruitful or civil so what’s the point?

You'll have to explain this one to me. You'd rather be called something that is always an insult, than something that is just a descriptive term for half the world's population?

100 percent. There is no statement that isn’t demonstrably false you could call me that I would be more insulted by than man. That’s my point.

[–]firebird 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

It’s nuanced

You don't say. For what it's worth, I don't see the point in general, so GC people wanting to make the distinction there is also beyond me.

We all agree it’s better than man.

Did all of you have a big convention?

If you can talk about gay men without calling them f*gs, you can talk about trans women without calling them men.

Not the same thing.

If someone can’t make the base level courtesy of not calling me something they know very well I consider a Prime and powerful insult, I don’t want to debate them. It won’t be fruitful or civil so what’s the point?

Debates are important if a big group of people with different views ever want to get somewhere. What do you think the point of a debate is?

100 percent. There is no statement that isn’t demonstrably false you could call me that I would be more insulted by than man. That’s my point.

Just repeating your point isn't a helpful explanation.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Not the same thing.

It is the same thing.

Debates are important if a big group of people with different views ever want to get somewhere. What do you think the point of a debate is?

The point is if they can’t do the basic, basic courtesy of not being openly and antagonistically insulting, it won’t ever get anywhere.

Just repeating your point isn't a helpful explanation.

What would you like explained. There’s nothing you could call me that wasn’t obviously factually wrong that would insult me more than man. Ugly, idiotic, degenerate, freak. Name a thing that isn’t saying I hurt someone directly and it will be less insulting than man.

[–]firebird 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

It is the same thing.

A slur exclusively used to express hate of a certain group is not the same thing as a term based on a concept that exists across multiple species.

The point is if they can’t do the basic, basic courtesy of not being openly and antagonistically insulting, it won’t ever get anywhere.

That's not what is happening here. What is happening is that you want people to stop using words that are of vital importance to the debate just because you have certain feelings around it. What you are saying is "I only want to have a debate about this when there is no longer a debate to be had".

What would you like explained.

I wanted to know why a term designed to hurt people who are different in some way is more pleasant to you than a term that's merely a description of a concept that simply exists in the world. "Deviant freak" is inherently negative, while "man" is neither positive nor negative.