QT/Trans/TRA - What reciprocal courtesy or labor do you extend to GC who will honor your pronouns? (but everyone can comment)

submitted by divingrightintowork from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (32 children)

I changed from t*rf to GC which is honestly really comparable in terms of effort aka not a lot after a while. I also adopt other terms like natal instead of cis when talking to GC individuals. If you think that using correct pronouns is as degrading as kotowing to an extremist cult, then you should probably just avoid interacting with trans people all together.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

It' s not a question of effort, and the fact that you are pretending it is is incredibly obnoxious.

Calling us GC instead of TERF is indeed a courtesy that doesn' t validate our ideology and opinions at all. Calling men she means that either I consider them some kind of women, or that I am ok with selling womanhood out to make certain men feel better. Either way, your position becomes stronger and your arguments more "valid", because your womanhood is completely dependent on third parties recognizing you as such. Us participating in it just destroys our points and enforces yours. You calling us GC doesn' t do it.

Not to mention, trans natal males love using the fact that many of us use the "correct" pronouns out of courtesy against us because they bring it as proof that since everyone uses their preferred pronouns, then it means that everyone considers them women, when the reality is simply that the great majority of people call you what you want for headpats, for courtesy or to avoid drama.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Neutral address is an option that isn’t misgendering.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

While I generally use neutral addresses, they are misgendering as well given that a "they" is not a "she". "They" is specific for 1) a group of people, 2) someone whose sex/gender isn' t known, 3) for someone who has a "they" identity.

Using it for you is desrespectful for NBs, because it means that their identity is up for grabs for anyone. Not that I want to defend them, their arguments are even more obnoxious, anti-women and nonsensical than TRAs' s, which is saying something. But it' s amazing how you are ready to disregard their identity and label of choice if it' s beneficial for you while at the same time saying that doing the same to you is a breach of civility.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

While I generally use neutral addresses, they are misgendering as well given that a "they" is not a "she". "They" is specific for 1) a group of people, 2) someone whose sex/gender isn' t known, 3) for someone who has a "they" identity.

I don’t consider they misgendering. It’s neutral. It has no value and is therefore not misgendering as far as I am concerned.

They isn’t exclusive to non-binary people. It’s just neutral. There are non-binary exclusive pronouns like the neopronouns like xir. Some non-binary people use “they” but they don’t own it.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I don’t consider they misgendering. It’s neutral. It has no value and is therefore not misgendering as far as I am concerned.

I don' t consider calling a male "he" misgendering. It' s descriptive. It only describes reality and is therefore not misgendering as far as I am concerned.

They isn’t exclusive to non-binary people.

That is what you say because it' s beneficial to you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

There’s a difference between defining the value of an insult by the victim and defining it by the user. You see that yes?

I’m not insulted by they. Some trans women may be but the general understanding it isn’t an insult to call a trans woman “they”

However everyone knows,You included, That Nearly all trans women would be hurt and insulted by being called he. Whether something is insulting has to be determined by the person the insult is targeting, not the values of the user.

That is what you say because it' s beneficial to you.

That’s what I say because they is an established English term for an person of neutral or unknown gender. It’s not a new use.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There’s a difference between defining the value of an insult by the victim and defining it by the user. You see that yes?

Awesome: I consider it insulting when someone wants to control the way I speak and wants me to use words in a way I don' t support.

Explain to me how you feeling insulted should take precedence over me feeling insulted.

That’s what I say because they is an established English term for an person of neutral or unknown gender. It’s not a new use.

You don' t have a neutral or unknown gender. So the term doesn' t apply to you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I haven’t asked to do anything but not call me a man. I’ve even presented you with neutral options. If you can’t have the basic courtesy of not openly and knowingly insulting me, just don’t talk to me. Nothing active need be done. Just leave trans people alone and it’s a non issue.

They is a neutral singular. It’s been in common vernacular for literally centuries. Enbies can have it too , but it’s not exclusive.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I haven’t asked to do anything but not call me a man. I’ve even presented you with neutral options.

And I have already explained to you that your feelings on the matter are not superior to anyone else' s. And that your neutral options are not neutral at all.

If you can’t have the basic courtesy of not openly and knowingly insulting me

Answer the question: why is it that you asking things and me refusing is me "not having basic decency", but me asking things and you refusing is perfectly legitimate? Why is it that my needs and feelings are not important while yours should be always taken into consideration? Why is it that I have to make a conscious choice of using language I don' t want to use to make you feel better, but you can' t be bothered letting me express myself the way I want? Is it not common courtesy and decency to let people speak their mind?

Just leave trans people alone and it’s a non issue.

I am not the one going after them. I would be more than happy to stop caring about them once and for all and forget they exist. But as long as they butcher women' s right and free speech, it' s kind of a hard thing to do.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Why does their offence over my factual observation that they’re a he matter? Why should women care if men’s feelings are hurt when we correctly identify the sex of the men in question?

In before ~basic human decency~

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You don’t have to care about other people but if you don’t give basic courtesy of not openly insulting them you can’t expect productive dialogue.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So no it doesn’t matter that I’m equally insulted by being expected to police my language and deny my lives experiences.

Meaning women’s feelings matter less than the feelings of men who call themselves women. Women who disagree are heartless, don’t care about anyone, and are lacking in empathy.

Hurting a males feelings means women are emotionally/socially wrong.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

If only that were possible.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

What about a compromise pronoun like "they?"

[–]firebird 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Thought that was a compromise as well, but I've since learned that there are people who will consider "they" offensive if you use it instead of their preferred pronouns.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I personally don't consider they a compromise. I mean using it for unknowns sure, but else you should use preferred ones.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So if someone has an objection to that, they should just avoid ever speaking to trans people? That seems unduly restrictive.

I personally would use a preferred pronoun for anyone who is an adult and not a criminal (not a high bar), but some GC people have philosophical objections. I guess they could avoid pronouns entirely, but that's awkward. I suppose it could be done if needed, though.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I personally don't consider it restrictive to avoid people you can't adress respectfully. That's a self imposed restriction after all.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Since when is "they" disrespectful? It's supposed to be a neutral pronoun. Are you arguing people should be forced to call that J-person up in Canada "she?"

You can't always avoid talking to or about people in real life.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not more of less disrespectful than he or she. If you know the person isn't going be they and you use it anyways then there's no difference. If you don't it's another story but I think I said that already.

Sure. But if you can't talk to them respectfully without betraying your ideals then the logical step is to avoid them as much as possible. I personally swallow my pride when I have to interact, but not everyone does that.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not saying I personally have a problem with it. But the idea that certain speech must be compelled otherwise you're not being respectful bothers me.

I suppose if I was in a scenario where a person who was acting in bad faith was demanding certain pronouns, I would extract myself from the situation if possible. If I could not extract myself, like at work, I would bend over backwards to avoid using any pronoun at all.