QT/Trans/TRA - What reciprocal courtesy or labor do you extend to GC who will honor your pronouns? (but everyone can comment)

submitted by divingrightintowork from self.GCdebatesQT

It seems like a one way street, doing something that is unintuitive and arguably inviolation of personal beliefs..

So - how do you reciprocate this energy or even violation of values, what do you do in exchange / consideration for people like myself that don't believe one can misgender, because they don't believe in gender identity, but will still do this nicety as a courtesy for you - what courtesy are you doing for us?

Imagine if I were a Christian in a Muslim country, and always had to say Asalam Aleyku as a greeting, even though that was in violation of my faith. Do you generally think this is how the world should operate and that this is ok? Because this is sort of what it feels like - except it's not even like that - it's like being an athiest and having to kotow to an extremist cult or describe how beautiful the clothing of the naked emperor is.

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

None lol. It’ll never be a reciprocal relationship. We aren’t even allowed to use accurate pronouns (misgender), so we are already extending the curtesy, even if by force. I haven’t been here and haven’t gone through the older posts, but I’m confident that we still get referred to as “cis” so we don’t even get the curtesy of not being “misgendered” ourselves.

Also, I love your analogy.

[–]DistantGlimmer 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with this . The issue is that they treat a failure to comply as some form of bigotry if they viewed it as a courtesy I imagine more GC-types would go along esp.if the also treated GC women with more respect in return but I doubt that will happen unless the TRAs lose a lot of steam and backing.

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

People should be free to call me (and other trans people) by whatever pronouns they feel like. I would sincerely appreciate someone choosing to use she/her in reference to me, but I don't expect it of anyone. Therefore, I don't feel a need to offer something in exchange. If you'd like to call me he/him or a TiM or a man or whatever, go for it, I don't really care 🤷‍♀️

That being said, out of courtesy to GC individuals, I avoid using that 4 letter acronym that begins with a "T" in reference to GC people. I also use "natal" when referencing individuals who are not transgender or transsexual. So in a way, I suppose there are some reciprocations in terms of language used.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So, turf is a noun, and while it's not equivalent to trnny, it's... more equivalent to it than pronouns. So I don't think not calling me a terf is akin to me using identity based pronouns on someone. That said I appreciate your respectful and level headed nature - I consider pronouns a courtesy or politeness - like it's nice if I open the door for you, but it's not mean if I don't. So I may use female pronouns on you as a courtesy, but I won't do you that courtesy if you're mean to me.. but why would you call me a TERF, hypothetically? Using "natal woman" is also not a favor our courtesy, using "woman" to refer to females would be the courtesy. Arguably even calling you a trans woman is a courtesy, rather than a transman or transmale. These are courtesies I don't necessarily mind doing, but they are not matters of baseline respect in my opinion... but I was curious to see what other people considered courtesies and niceities, so I appreciate your response.

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but why would you call me a TERF, hypothetically?

Given our short conversation thus far, I don't see a reason to. The term is almost always used disparagingly, and I'd rather not be blatantly disrespectful to people I don't even know on the internet.

I do not think most GC individuals are able to be classified as "TERFs" because most GC individuals aren't really transphobic, at least from my interactions with them.

That being said, I think that (occasionally) some GC folks fall back on or use transphobic rhetoric and fear-mongering, in which case I would refer to those specific individuals as transphobic, and therefore "TERFs". Basically, not all rectangles (GC) are squares (transphobes).

using "woman" to refer to females would be the courtesy

I suppose I agree. Generally, I refer to both natal and trans women as women, as a courtesy and also as part of my understanding of gender (which we probably have disagreements on). I more so meant "natal" as a replacement for "cisgender" as I understand not all natal women identify with that label (rejection of gender identity conceptually, the term's associations with stereotypes/conformity). Usually, I only do this when I'm clarifying whether I'm referring to the category of natal women, or trans women.

Arguably even calling you a trans woman is a courtesy, rather than a transman or transmale.

This gets complicated and we probably disagree fundamentally on some specific terminology and ideas here, though as I mentioned, I don't demand anyone call me a certain thing if they don't want to. I do think it's a kind thing to do (to use preferred pronouns, refer to someone as the gender that they identify as), but I don't necessarily think it's disrespectful, if that makes any sense.

Although, if we're being technical, I would even simultaneously call myself a transsexual male and a transgender woman.

[–]yishengqingwa666 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Gross, dude.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What on earth did she say that's gross?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol okay then?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a GC gay man, I am in most cases not using any pronouns at all in internet or life conversations with people I don't know and who is trans or NB. With NB it can be annoying, when NB person is changing pronounses based on mood or time of the day. Face to face it is easy in my country, as we are dropping pronounses anyways, language is heavily gendered, but there is gender neutral way of speaking (in passive tense). I am using "them/they" about people I do not know at all and when talking about some abstract person, and was using that for decades, it had nothing to do with gender ideology before and has nothing to do now, I just don't like to use "default he" when talking about someone who's sex I do not know or someone abstract.

And special cases - if transgender/transsexual person is really trying to pass, and just want calm life and is not bothering anyone, living their lifes - I will always use their prefered pronouns. Same for transsexuals I respect, even if I may disagree with them. In general I am very positive about such people, I have around dozen of them as my friends, with few we were together fighting for LGB and later LGBT issues, standing side by side. Interesting enough, almost all of them are gender critical as well, and them being annoyed from the newest wave of "do not even try, just say you are woman/man" helped me becoming GC.

Second special case is when person is just a criminal, abusing poorly written self-id/gender laws and policies, or just very agressive individual - I will be dead naming and using their original pronouns. If they are not respecting anyone and/or making crimes while hiding behind their new identity - there no respect back to them either.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m sort of like in the “pronouns should be earned” camp. In real life, I feel like people should use the pronouns that come naturally based on how they perceive your sex and it’s wrong to ask for pronouns. Online, I expect people will use whichever pronouns they are most comfortable. I know that this sub has rules against misgendering, but for me personally, if any GC posters would feel more comfortable using male pronouns for me, please do. I’m not really sure how often pronouns would be used anyway, but I’m really not trying to force anyone to pretend they believe something they don’t.

I’m not sure what courtesy I give only to GC, but I try to listen and understand everyone’s perspective as much as possible and try not to speak for people with different life experience than my own. I agree with GC for the most part about language so I don’t feel like those things are a courtesy.

[–]IceColdLover 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GC woman here, I do call trans people by their preferred pronouns, partly out of what is still compassion and partly out of fear, and I find that the only "reciprocity" I get is that I am off the chopping block and do not get verbally or physically harassed.

If there was to be a comparison to religious practices it'd be the Islamic jizya tax, it's like paying for your own protection. Give me what I want, pay up, and I'll leave you alone.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (32 children)

I changed from t*rf to GC which is honestly really comparable in terms of effort aka not a lot after a while. I also adopt other terms like natal instead of cis when talking to GC individuals. If you think that using correct pronouns is as degrading as kotowing to an extremist cult, then you should probably just avoid interacting with trans people all together.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

It' s not a question of effort, and the fact that you are pretending it is is incredibly obnoxious.

Calling us GC instead of TERF is indeed a courtesy that doesn' t validate our ideology and opinions at all. Calling men she means that either I consider them some kind of women, or that I am ok with selling womanhood out to make certain men feel better. Either way, your position becomes stronger and your arguments more "valid", because your womanhood is completely dependent on third parties recognizing you as such. Us participating in it just destroys our points and enforces yours. You calling us GC doesn' t do it.

Not to mention, trans natal males love using the fact that many of us use the "correct" pronouns out of courtesy against us because they bring it as proof that since everyone uses their preferred pronouns, then it means that everyone considers them women, when the reality is simply that the great majority of people call you what you want for headpats, for courtesy or to avoid drama.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Neutral address is an option that isn’t misgendering.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

While I generally use neutral addresses, they are misgendering as well given that a "they" is not a "she". "They" is specific for 1) a group of people, 2) someone whose sex/gender isn' t known, 3) for someone who has a "they" identity.

Using it for you is desrespectful for NBs, because it means that their identity is up for grabs for anyone. Not that I want to defend them, their arguments are even more obnoxious, anti-women and nonsensical than TRAs' s, which is saying something. But it' s amazing how you are ready to disregard their identity and label of choice if it' s beneficial for you while at the same time saying that doing the same to you is a breach of civility.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

While I generally use neutral addresses, they are misgendering as well given that a "they" is not a "she". "They" is specific for 1) a group of people, 2) someone whose sex/gender isn' t known, 3) for someone who has a "they" identity.

I don’t consider they misgendering. It’s neutral. It has no value and is therefore not misgendering as far as I am concerned.

They isn’t exclusive to non-binary people. It’s just neutral. There are non-binary exclusive pronouns like the neopronouns like xir. Some non-binary people use “they” but they don’t own it.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I don’t consider they misgendering. It’s neutral. It has no value and is therefore not misgendering as far as I am concerned.

I don' t consider calling a male "he" misgendering. It' s descriptive. It only describes reality and is therefore not misgendering as far as I am concerned.

They isn’t exclusive to non-binary people.

That is what you say because it' s beneficial to you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

There’s a difference between defining the value of an insult by the victim and defining it by the user. You see that yes?

I’m not insulted by they. Some trans women may be but the general understanding it isn’t an insult to call a trans woman “they”

However everyone knows,You included, That Nearly all trans women would be hurt and insulted by being called he. Whether something is insulting has to be determined by the person the insult is targeting, not the values of the user.

That is what you say because it' s beneficial to you.

That’s what I say because they is an established English term for an person of neutral or unknown gender. It’s not a new use.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There’s a difference between defining the value of an insult by the victim and defining it by the user. You see that yes?

Awesome: I consider it insulting when someone wants to control the way I speak and wants me to use words in a way I don' t support.

Explain to me how you feeling insulted should take precedence over me feeling insulted.

That’s what I say because they is an established English term for an person of neutral or unknown gender. It’s not a new use.

You don' t have a neutral or unknown gender. So the term doesn' t apply to you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I haven’t asked to do anything but not call me a man. I’ve even presented you with neutral options. If you can’t have the basic courtesy of not openly and knowingly insulting me, just don’t talk to me. Nothing active need be done. Just leave trans people alone and it’s a non issue.

They is a neutral singular. It’s been in common vernacular for literally centuries. Enbies can have it too , but it’s not exclusive.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I haven’t asked to do anything but not call me a man. I’ve even presented you with neutral options.

And I have already explained to you that your feelings on the matter are not superior to anyone else' s. And that your neutral options are not neutral at all.

If you can’t have the basic courtesy of not openly and knowingly insulting me

Answer the question: why is it that you asking things and me refusing is me "not having basic decency", but me asking things and you refusing is perfectly legitimate? Why is it that my needs and feelings are not important while yours should be always taken into consideration? Why is it that I have to make a conscious choice of using language I don' t want to use to make you feel better, but you can' t be bothered letting me express myself the way I want? Is it not common courtesy and decency to let people speak their mind?

Just leave trans people alone and it’s a non issue.

I am not the one going after them. I would be more than happy to stop caring about them once and for all and forget they exist. But as long as they butcher women' s right and free speech, it' s kind of a hard thing to do.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Why does their offence over my factual observation that they’re a he matter? Why should women care if men’s feelings are hurt when we correctly identify the sex of the men in question?

In before ~basic human decency~

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You don’t have to care about other people but if you don’t give basic courtesy of not openly insulting them you can’t expect productive dialogue.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

So no it doesn’t matter that I’m equally insulted by being expected to police my language and deny my lives experiences.

Meaning women’s feelings matter less than the feelings of men who call themselves women. Women who disagree are heartless, don’t care about anyone, and are lacking in empathy.

Hurting a males feelings means women are emotionally/socially wrong.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

If only that were possible.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

What about a compromise pronoun like "they?"

[–]firebird 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Thought that was a compromise as well, but I've since learned that there are people who will consider "they" offensive if you use it instead of their preferred pronouns.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I personally don't consider they a compromise. I mean using it for unknowns sure, but else you should use preferred ones.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So if someone has an objection to that, they should just avoid ever speaking to trans people? That seems unduly restrictive.

I personally would use a preferred pronoun for anyone who is an adult and not a criminal (not a high bar), but some GC people have philosophical objections. I guess they could avoid pronouns entirely, but that's awkward. I suppose it could be done if needed, though.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I personally don't consider it restrictive to avoid people you can't adress respectfully. That's a self imposed restriction after all.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Since when is "they" disrespectful? It's supposed to be a neutral pronoun. Are you arguing people should be forced to call that J-person up in Canada "she?"

You can't always avoid talking to or about people in real life.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not more of less disrespectful than he or she. If you know the person isn't going be they and you use it anyways then there's no difference. If you don't it's another story but I think I said that already.

Sure. But if you can't talk to them respectfully without betraying your ideals then the logical step is to avoid them as much as possible. I personally swallow my pride when I have to interact, but not everyone does that.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not saying I personally have a problem with it. But the idea that certain speech must be compelled otherwise you're not being respectful bothers me.

I suppose if I was in a scenario where a person who was acting in bad faith was demanding certain pronouns, I would extract myself from the situation if possible. If I could not extract myself, like at work, I would bend over backwards to avoid using any pronoun at all.

[–]grixitperson 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Imagine if I were a Christian in a Muslim country, and always had to say Asalam Aleyku as a greeting, even though that was in violation of my faith.

Excuse me? How does saying "Peace to you" violate the christian faith? Especially considering that greeting is used by arabic speaking christians.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

rereading that I realized that there are possible interpretations of it that don't work perfectly, but also you're smart enough to get the meaning. Or are you implying that the crusades was not largely using The pretense of Christianity against Muslims in a conflict of ideology?

[–]grixitperson 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well first, the crusades are an example of my own observation that if someone really wants to do something, and they are religious, they tend to discover that what they want is what God wants them to do anyway. But that's separate from what you said, and no, i must not be smart enough to get the meaning. So please explain, how would an apparently positive greeting, used by both christians and moslems, be in violation of one's faith?

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Let's just say I'm an atheist and I go into a Christian country, and i If I don't greet people with some sort of Christian God affirming greeting I out myself as an atheist, and will be prosecuted by the state. Is that sufficiently clear and do you see any comparisons to identity based pronouns?

[–]grixitperson 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If there were such a country, yes, that would be a proper comparison. But that is not the example you used, and you still have not explained why you used it.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (53 children)

Being willing to have civil debate at all? Calling me a man is plainly and simply an insult. It’s a fundamental breach of civility and I will never have reasonable or productive dialogue if someone can’t show the basic human decency of not willfully insulting me.

[–]firebird 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

When descriptive terms become insults, debate on this topic becomes useless in general. Unless you have an idea for what other terms should be used instead of the usual 'man' and 'woman'?

I would also like to add that there's a vital difference in saying that you feel insulted by someone calling you a man, and in claiming that this person wilfully insulted you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I don’t object to neutral address like they/them or names.

They are willfully insulting me. No one can mistake me for anything but a trans woman and they know perfectly well that means man would be an insult. It’s not innocent.

[–]firebird 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Neither of those options is a real replacement for 'man' or 'woman' though. Which is what I was looking for.

To know that someone is wilfully insulting you, they either have to tell you, or you have to be able to read minds. When someone calls you a man when you are clearly a trans woman, there are other possible reasons and it's not necessarily because they want to hurt you.

This is what I meant in my previous comment. If you want a debate to happen on this topic, this is going to have to involve some things that might not be fun to hear. Which is probably the case for both sides, I might add. And the words man and woman will have to be included, because they are simply among the most vital words in this conversation.

Just consider the fact that you just referred to yourself as a trans woman. That would be out of the question as well, if 'man' and 'woman' are insults.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

<Neither of those options is a real replacement for 'man' or 'woman' though. Which is what I was looking for.>

Person, trans woman, transgender woman, hell even transwoman. Shit, transexual is a gross term but still better than man.

At best they are knowingly insulting me. They know it will be taken as an insult and know it will be hurtful. To still sue it is willful harm, whatever polish you wish to put to it.

I am a trans woman. Man isn’t an insult to cis men or trans women. Woman isn’t an insult to women. But man is 100 percent always and forever an insult to trans women. There is no way around it. It is one of the worst things you could call us. I would rather be called a deviant freak than a man.

[–]divingrightintowork[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am female, I don't feel insulted when people call me a man, So I guess that's not really a woman thing huh?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You should be, since that’s why people knowingly call women men, to try to insult them.

But some women are some aren’t. Just as there are some quisling trans women like Hayton who wouldn’t object to man because they’ve made an identity of hating themselves. So it’s not even universal for trans women.

[–]firebird 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Those aren't actually replacements in the literal sense, but I'll respond to them anyway.

Person

Everyone is a person. Of course it's the safest option available and maybe it's good enough for you and me, but I've encountered plenty of people who aren't satisfied with neutral options. I've also seen it used as the non-binary alternative for man or woman.

trans woman, transgender woman, hell even transwoman

Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker but I simply don't see the distinction. Don't they all mean the same?

transexual is a gross term

Not all trans people agree on that though. Who should I even follow on this?

They know it will be taken as an insult and know it will be hurtful. To still sue it is willful harm

Again, if people have to stop using it, a debate on this topic simply can't happen. People have to simply give in on a certain point without even being able to discuss that, and I simply don't think that's right especially not since it is based on someone's personal feelings and opinions on the matter.

whatever polish you wish to put to it

You are dismissing other people's concerns, lived experiences, what they wish to talk about in this debate and actual, real concepts as "polish". If you want to come across like wanting debate and not like you just want people to do as you want them to do, then this is not the way to go about it.

I would rather be called a deviant freak than a man.

You'll have to explain this one to me. You'd rather be called something that is always an insult, than something that is just a descriptive term for half the world's population?

Edit: Wanted to quickly add a reply to your comment further down the thread: It's honestly a bit weird to tell people what they should be insulted by, and say that someone who simply does not agree with you must be filled with self-hatred. So far you haven't even provided any objective arguments, it's all subjective and based on feelings.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker but I simply don't see the distinction. Don't they all mean the same?

It’s nuanced trans women can be seen as a short form of transgender woman or an emphasis of the trans umbrella. Transgender woman is more neutral, transwoman is a something some gc people started to not call us men but make a point of not having the space so trans isn’t just treated as a “type of woman” but a separate thing.

Not all trans people agree on that though. Who should I even follow on this?

We all agree it’s better than man.

Again, if people have to stop using it, a debate on this topic simply can't happen. People have to simply give in on a certain point without even being able to discuss that, and I simply don't think that's right especially not since it is based on someone's personal feelings and opinions on the matter.

I’ve given you multiple alternatives. If you can talk about gay men without calling them fags, you can talk about trans women without calling them men.

You are dismissing other people's concerns, lived experiences, what they wish to talk about in this debate and actual, real concepts as "polish". If you want to come across like wanting debate and not like you just want people to do as you want them to do, then this is not the way to go about it.

If someone can’t make the base level courtesy of not calling me something they know very well I consider a Prime and powerful insult, I don’t want to debate them. It won’t be fruitful or civil so what’s the point?

You'll have to explain this one to me. You'd rather be called something that is always an insult, than something that is just a descriptive term for half the world's population?

100 percent. There is no statement that isn’t demonstrably false you could call me that I would be more insulted by than man. That’s my point.

[–]firebird 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

It’s nuanced

You don't say. For what it's worth, I don't see the point in general, so GC people wanting to make the distinction there is also beyond me.

We all agree it’s better than man.

Did all of you have a big convention?

If you can talk about gay men without calling them f*gs, you can talk about trans women without calling them men.

Not the same thing.

If someone can’t make the base level courtesy of not calling me something they know very well I consider a Prime and powerful insult, I don’t want to debate them. It won’t be fruitful or civil so what’s the point?

Debates are important if a big group of people with different views ever want to get somewhere. What do you think the point of a debate is?

100 percent. There is no statement that isn’t demonstrably false you could call me that I would be more insulted by than man. That’s my point.

Just repeating your point isn't a helpful explanation.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Not the same thing.

It is the same thing.

Debates are important if a big group of people with different views ever want to get somewhere. What do you think the point of a debate is?

The point is if they can’t do the basic, basic courtesy of not being openly and antagonistically insulting, it won’t ever get anywhere.

Just repeating your point isn't a helpful explanation.

What would you like explained. There’s nothing you could call me that wasn’t obviously factually wrong that would insult me more than man. Ugly, idiotic, degenerate, freak. Name a thing that isn’t saying I hurt someone directly and it will be less insulting than man.

[–]firebird 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

It is the same thing.

A slur exclusively used to express hate of a certain group is not the same thing as a term based on a concept that exists across multiple species.

The point is if they can’t do the basic, basic courtesy of not being openly and antagonistically insulting, it won’t ever get anywhere.

That's not what is happening here. What is happening is that you want people to stop using words that are of vital importance to the debate just because you have certain feelings around it. What you are saying is "I only want to have a debate about this when there is no longer a debate to be had".

What would you like explained.

I wanted to know why a term designed to hurt people who are different in some way is more pleasant to you than a term that's merely a description of a concept that simply exists in the world. "Deviant freak" is inherently negative, while "man" is neither positive nor negative.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

And if they aren’t speaking about you? If we acknowledge say, Jazz Jennings as male, that’s fine?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Male and man aren’t the same thing, but again do what you want. I’m telling you man is an insult to trans women not telling you what to do with that information.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

They are the same thing. Your interpretation is not universal. Your feelings are not the feelings of all transwomen.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

A healthy consensus of trans women would agree trans women aren’t men at least . I personally do consider myself male (but not a man )while many trans women wouldn’t.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

But you’ll speak for and over those who don’t. A healthy consensus of everyone else would agree that male and man are the same. That consensus would be far larger. Why are we all wrong about not sharing your subjective belief system?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

You don’t have to share our beliefs to not insult us. Just because a straight person might not consider fag an insult to gay people, just a discriptor. But that doesn’t mean gay men need to have friendly discourse with someone calling them a fag.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Terms like “fag” are not descriptors. Man and male are. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

I would be just as offended by being called either.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So? Your personal feelings aren’t universal.