GC: How do you feel that your lack of experience being trans impacts your approach to this debate?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

How did you come to enough of an understanding of what it's like to be trans to feel that you can appropriately contribute to the discussion? How do you gauge how well you understand? What have you done to better understand? How important do you think it is for someone to understand what it's like to be trans in order to debate here meaningfully?

This is a repeat from the old sub, mostly copied and pasted, but I thought it would be interesting to revisit the topic. This question is aimed at GC, but QT can also chime in, of course.

all 22 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I read what transgender people, mostly transwomen, said and what they claimed to feel. What they said was ‘woman is a feeling not a lived reality’. They said ‘skirt go spinny’, ‘male socialisation doesn’t exist’.

How do transgendered males here feel their lack of experience being female impacts their approach to debate and life?

[–]yishengqingwa666 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

THIS RIGHT HERE.

[–]comradeconradical 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I responded snarkily in another comment, but my truthful response is this:

I think my lack of experience being trans means I don't see how someone who is of the opposite sex than I am can possibly understand the struggles and situations I or my sex have faced since childhood. I think it makes me hyper aware of sexism coming from the opposite sex, and internalized misogyny coming from the same sex.

I can relate with transmen who reject femininity, because as a female I do not believe femininity makes a woman. I cannot relate with transwomen who think femininity makes them a woman, because even when I was a tomboy I was a girl.

To me, current trans identities focus too strongly on 'gender roles and expression' for their labels, while I personally think a person can present any gender role or expression while maintaining biological sex.

Dysphoria is another animal, but one I believe is related to body dysmorphia. I don't think it means you've been born in the wrong body, even if it feels that way, no more than I think an anorexic person is fat because they they think they are.

I think everyone has felt uncomfortable or repulsed by their body at some time or other, and that it's unfortunate that some trans people make this discomfort their identity.

To answer your questions, I think that being female means I have enough understanding to contribute to the debate with people who claim to be women even though they are male. I've read countless accounts from both sides to try and understand both perspectives. In fact I was a trans rights advocate until I thought too deeply and critically of the emotional arguments I was defending. I think I understand very well, as someone who is both a radical feminist and holding a certification in psychology. I do think it's important to consider all perspectives to form an informed opinion.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, I had gender dysphoria for a few years, when I was young, and I know and helped to a few dozens of oldschool transsexuals (mostly hsts, but few were straight and liked women even after surgery). With most of them I am still friends. Funny, that majority of them are all gender critical and they are strongly against current generation of "it is enough to say who you are to become part of that group of people and claim spaces of that group". So I have pretty good perspective from that side.

[–]comradeconradical 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

How do transwomen feel that their lack of experience being female impacts their approach to gender critical perspectives of sex-based oppression?

[–]Spikygrasspod 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or their ability to define womanhood?

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That would be a good question to pose as well, if any of our QT members want to answer.

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said this as a knee-jerk response, but you're right, I would like to hear their perspectives on this. I've never seen a transwoman fight for purely female-related rights after all.

[–]worried19[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think I mostly understand the trans perspective, but more from the natal female side of things. It's easy for me to see how female people would not want to be female. The trans natal male point of view is not one that I can relate to emotionally, but I understand they feel the same way in the opposite direction.

On the whole, I don't view trans people as fundamentally different from myself. I'm someone who has been highly GNC since earliest childhood, so I get what it's like to have stress and turmoil over gender. I understand wanting to be dead rather than grow up to be an adult of your birth sex. I don't feel "cis" or "like a woman" (not that anyone does), so I can understand most of what trans men experience, minus the debilitating physical dysphoria.

GNC people and trans people are, to me, part of the same small population. We have things in common. We shouldn't have to be enemies. We should be protected under the same laws. If it's illegal to fire a trans man for masculine presentation, it should be illegal to fire a non-trans butch woman for the same. We should be protected under the same non-discrimination policies for employment, housing, public accommodation, etc.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

It's easy for me to see how female people would not want to be female

Somewhere on GC sub was a joke about "Main difference between transwoman and woman is that woman does not want to be a woman in this society". And as far as I know, it is not really a joke.

[–]les4les 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Was just about to quote that exact line. I guess that not understanding gender or what it actually means would theoretically disqualify me from the debate, but when I've expressed that view to my trans or nonbinary friends, they've... generally also said "yes, gender is confusing" and "that's totally valid" and "me either" lmao, so I feel like in this situation it's unreasonable to expect people to exclude themselves from this discussion just because their inability to comprehend gender led them to decide it's fake in a way other than identifying outside the binary.

Also, haha, women are the original oppressed "gender." If we don't have a say, who the hell does?

[–]yishengqingwa666 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ooh, more trans cult gaslighting nonsense.

I read EVERYTHING I could get my hands on about what trans is, what "genderqueer" is, what privi-- I mean "rights" trans people are demanding... and I became GC.

Trans activism is a male sexual rights movement, regressive and misogynist to the core.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think any trans people are well meaning?

How do you feel about trans men?

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have a complex relationship with gender and have experienced what I now believe to be social dysphoria although it was not called that back in the 90s. I think I'm actually pretty "agender" without all the NB add ons of that. I don't see "trans" as some unified thing I have a lot of sympathy for transsexual people coping with dysphoria and transmen in general as well as detrans and intersex people.

The autogynephiles who force their way into women's spaces that I think create most of the problems. Full passig MTF transsexuals are a very small group.

[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The stuff I criticize or talk about doesn't require much or any understanding of trans experiences. For example, denouncing cotton ceiling doesn't really involve trans experiences. Even something like gender identity, I can criticize from my perspective without saying anything of trans perspectives. That being said, it does help to see where people are coming from so I'm not opposed to listening to trans people or anything like that. But having intimate knowledge of trans experiences isn't necessary for the stuff that I'm concerned about.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m mostly GC, but obviously I’m trans. For what GC is most concerned about when it comes to trans people, I don’t feel like understanding our experience (which is varied) is a must. I feel like the discussion is mostly focused on the way trans ideology reinforces gender or the way the trans movement is hurting women by eroding single-sex spaces and protections.

I do feel like many GCs people perceptions about trans people are reflective of the trans people who are most frustrating to GC and it’s weird to always have that projected on to you. It’s even in this thread and it’s strange to read those things. I totally get it though because if you are interested in this topic you probably are sort of in an echo chamber that feeds you stories that reinforce that trans people are a problem or you just remember those because they help reinforce your perception. I feel like I even do this, but somehow think of me differently.

On the flip side, I do feel like many male trans people don’t make an effort to understand female experiences or think honestly about their own privilege because of their sex, especially if they passed for straight for some period of there life. No male can fully understand female experiences (or vice versa), but it seems like you should at least make an effort to listen and empathize. It’s weird that someone can identify as a woman, but not feel kinship with women.

[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

According to transgender ideology everyone has an innate gender identity, including "cis" people. The same way I can understand for instance that being gay isn't a choice, since I'm not able to change my own sexual orientation either.

Most GC people appear to be "GNC" &/or lesbians &/or dysphoric & /or identified as trans themselves in the past etc. According to transgenderism a person is either trans or cis. Well RadFems are neither. They aren't actually different from trans people, just ideologically different.

The next brain study should have a control group full of GC, GNC lesbians & autistic people, compare them with trans-men & female NB people (as long as they haven't been on hormones) then these supposed brain differences between supposed "trans" people & "cis" people will probably disappear.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Can you define trans for me? Am I trans if I'm perceived as trans? Am I trans if navigated the medical system to get and take cross sex hormones and developed secondary sex characteristics? Am I trans if I have had people insist I was a sex that I was not? Am I trans if I'm GNC/Andro in just about every metric, and confuse people as to my "gender identity" unless I spell it out for them?

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, that's a good question. I suppose I meant identifying as trans.

But GNC people are often "trans" by the same standards trans people use to measure transness. Which is why I personally don't see a large divide between the GNC and trans communities. It's a shame those of us who are gender abolitionists are considered the enemy, because we do have real-world experience of what it's like to heavily transgress gender expectations.

[–]zephyranthes 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How did you come to enough of an understanding of what it's like to be trans to feel that you can appropriately contribute to the discussion?

This makes no sense. Specifically, when you wade through the newspeak, it means "you aren't qualified to debate if you don't already agree with me".

Unlike being of the female sex, being trans is self-identification with a movement. Honest members of a movement naturally consider themselves to be in the right. Therefore, they must EITHER define satisfactory understanding as agreement OR admit that they are in fact enemies of the outgroup. So which is it?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

being trans is self-identification with a movement

Can you explain what you mean by this? I feel like we can not support the movement, but still be trans because I guess I see trans as meaning physically transitioned.

[–]Jizera 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is not a supportive group for transsexual persons.

This is not a safe space. This space is to to hold discussion for polarizing ideologies.

See the right panel on the screen.

I suppose that majority of people discussing here (and on the original subreddit in past) seek wide range of information related to transsexuality including various personal experience shared in various ways on many sites even on such where we are denounced, ridiculed or and accused of hate or even crimes. Therefore despite we can't have inner individual experience of being transsexual, we can have large knowledge of transsexual people problems, positions, oppinions and also of aggressive behaviour of some trans-activists. Such knowledge includes also experiences shared by various transsexual/trnasgender people who don't follow QT. Just today I found very intersting youtube videos by a guy who speaks about his own experience of AGP. I think that an individual experience is often actually preventing to understand the core of problems, because we can be flooded by emotions blocking rational thinking.