GC: If biological sex is just about roles in reproduction, does that mean someone doesn't have a biological sex and isn't a man or a woman if they don't reproduce? And that in the times they do things that don't lead to reproduction, they have no biological sex?

submitted by Nohope from (self.GCdebatesQT)

In this post; https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCynical/comments/ij9u4j/misgendering_your_trans_partner_because_biology/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

One of the comments got my attention because it means they understand biological sex;

Biological sex is usually discussed in the sciences in regards to reproduction. I doubt reproduction is this guy’s main concern. Is he claiming cis gayyy only biologically responds to cis gay? Boy, please.

I guess they mean since biological sex is the roles in reproduction, it makes no sense to talk about biological sex when it comes to someone that doesn't reproduce, because someone that doesn't reproduce is not playing any roles in reproduction so they have no biological sex and aren't men or women ...

If biological sex is just about roles in reproduction, does that mean someone doesn't have a biological sex and isn't a man or a woman if they don't reproduce? And that in the times they do things that don't lead to reproduction, they have no biological sex?

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A woman who does not ovulate would still ovulate without the presence of a disorder or disease. She would not produce sperm.

No, infertility does not make someone sexless.

[–]les4les 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Even if you have your genitals surgically modified or you are a homosexual or celibate, you still have a sex at birth or a "would-be" role in reproduction. The vast majority of people are born with the capability to either ovulate or produce sperm, and nobody has the ability to do both

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not only that, whole organism is built around that function, with clear differences in hormonal levels, inner organs and differences in them (colon length and structure, for example), muscle and bone structure, skeletal differences, and more. So even if somehow person is infertile - whole body was still built around the fact that it was supposed to be fertile in one or another way (except rare disorders).

Some very basic examples on why transwomen can't have women's gait and always look like gay man gait from behind (my gay radar eye is trained to find other gay men): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZrNLagwls

To neutralize those differences, around 90+% of organism must be replaced, so that will be basically "placing your brain with memories into new body". And even then there could be needed changes in brain to make it able to control new hormones and hormonal cycles.

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We all (even dogs, apparently) are laser sharp at detecting men and women, except youngsters who have lost this ability due to exposure to postmodern deconstruction.

[–]firebird 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Short answer: no, that's not what it means.

Long answer: your reproductive role is just what part your body would play in the event that you would choose to procreate and in the absence of anything causing infertility. Someone who does not reproduce and/or is infertile still has a body that falls into one of the two categories, and thus is still of the sex of a certain reproductive role, even if that role is technically never filled.

You can take me as an example. I'm a childfree woman. I'll never reproduce, but my body is still specifically built for the female reproductive role, which means I am of the female sex.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some trans people (less than I used to think) do things to our bodies that make us sterile, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a sex anymore. It’s especially silly to say that with a transman because I’ve heard that transmen can still get pregnant after being on testosterone for like a decade. Gay men aren’t going to want to have sex with someone with a vagina because gay men feel about vaginas the same way lesbians feel about penises.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve heard that transmen can still get pregnant after being on testosterone for like a decade.

It is a bit irrelevant to a topic, but this year there was an incident, when transwoman raped transman in hope to make "non-binary children". So even after transition (without SRS), during sex they were still acting according to their biological sex and not to their gender (one was trying to impregnate other).

[–]catoborosnonbinary 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, some trans men still menstruate, even on testosterone.

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. At any moment in which you are not conceiving, gestating, delivering or lactacting, you are sexless. Sexism and misogyny will not apply to you. Your risk of domestic and sexual violence at the hands of men will be lowered to the average. Also, men will not talk over you. /s

[–]Maeven 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They do understand. The shifting arguments make that abundantly obvious, if you're familiar with underhanded debate tactics. It's never about convincing their opponents. It's about exhausting them into capitulation. If you can confuse your audience, sow doubt in their minds and make them afraid of contradicting what you're telling them, you can control them.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it is an attempt to muddy the waters, to erase our ability to even discuss sex, and prevent any discussion that might undermine their preprepared conclusions that "trans women are women" and that lesbians with "genital preferences" are horrible bigots. Newspeak, anyone?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Wtf? Nothing in this world follows that logic. If someone has, had, or was meant to have a specific purpose then it's labelled accordingly. Is sperm only sperm at the moment it is fertilising an ovum? Is ova only ova at the moment of fertilisation? Is a seed not a seed if it never gets planted? Is an instrument no longer an instrument when it's not being played?

The human race reproduces sexually. Every human is either male or female. There aren't any humans who are neuter. And an organism isn't neuter simply because it hasn't reproduced.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It sound like that person believes biological sex is irrelevant because sex only has to do with reproduction. Which is not true on both counts. Biological sex affects a lot more than reproduction. It's in every cell of our bodies and determines the way our bodies are formed. A trans man will never have a functioning penis or testicles. Why are non-trans gay men expected to be attracted to female genitalia?

[–]grixitperson 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Biological sex means the role that your anatomy was potentially prepared to play. Not playing that role, not acquiring all the factors needed, or losing something needed, does not change that.

[–]MrFahrenheit46Gen Z butch dyke 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can see where you're coming from, but it's still wrong. Your sex means that, barring any medical irregularities, if you have sexual intercourse with a physically mature member of the opposite sex that results in conception, you will either be the one ejaculating (male) or the one gestating (female).

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the OP is just posing the question, not advocating this position.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have never before seen such furious agreement on this sub! All humans, except for a tiny number of intersex people, have one of two immutable binary sexes. Sex does not change with fertility, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

For the record, I am nonbinary, a eunuch and therefore sterile, but still male.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Even majority of intersex people have only one system working (or none), but never two, except maybe once in a billion.

[–]Lilmishap 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Human beings of both sexes are supposed to walk upright during childhood, babies born with some spinal conditions don't get to do that. Boy/Girl Humans are supposed to have five senses, not all Boy/Girl Human babies have that luxury.

Nobody would ever claim to be confused about a Baby Human of either sex being an 'actual' Human of either sex because part of their body didn't do what it was supposed to.

[–]Happy_face_caller 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is an excellent equivalency. It’s the same as people that don’t go into the same field as they got their degree in. Did they really get the degree if they didn’t end up using it in your profession?

[–]Jizera 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Watch videos in this YouTube channel Paradox Institute. But this is my simple explanation:

  • Sex categories (man, woman, male, female) have meaning only related to reproduction. We differentiate between men and women because there are two very different roles in reproduction. If there was only one identical role in reproduction we would not distinguish between human beings based on a role in reproduction, because it would be impossible.

  • These categories are notions, concepts in our brain reflecting phenomena observable in the real world: There are the two roles, one requires ability to produce speciall cells called ova (singular ovum) or egg cells, the other requires ability to produce sperms.

  • Even before people knew in detail the mechanism of reproduction they were able to differentiate between men and women, because the ability to realize the different roles is manifeseted in very significant differences in various structures of the body and corresponding functions and behaviour. And we also need such differentiation, because ability of reproduction is the most important function of any live species and it impacts principally all life of all live things, including those individuals who don't have a direct role in reproduction, like worker bees, or those who are not able to reproduce because of some disorder. Even now in this crazy time we need this differentiation and therfore some idiots create various absurd neologisms like menstruators or uterus owners.

  • Sex categories don't reflect disorders which can cause inability to reproduce. But we include individuals in sex categories based on their body features, because, as you can learn in the videos of the channel linked above, each human individual is either male or female, only in some individuals full development of male or female functions and corresponding body structures failed, because of some genetic or developmental failures. Even so called intersexuals are either males or females and not "something in between". SEX IS STRICTLY BINARY. But because of complexity of human body and its functions, some functions can be absent or in conflict with sex of the individual.

  • Sex categories also don't reflect mental states or individual fate which can cause that some individuals don't realize their ability to reproduce.