GC: Do you believe women who voluntarily prostitute themselves should go to jail or be charged?

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I still think clients should be treated as criminals. What’s the benefit of decriminalising the purchase of sex for the buyer?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

There is no benefit to criminalising consensual sex between adults. Many people engage in transactional sex. Vilifying one type gains nothing. All that happens is that secrecy is introduced and that participants are less likely to cooperate with police. Just like the war on drugs. Just like the prohibition on alcohol. Prosecuting victimless crimes is a poor alternative to addressing the underlying economic inequalities that are at the root of the problems associated with the sex industry. Much like prosecuting people for homelessness (vagrancy), punitive measures miss the point.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Is it really consensual sex if the woman has the choice between feeding her kids after selling sex or watching them go to bed hungry without selling sex?

Trafficked women are not consenting. Those women make up far more of the women you’re talking about than women who want to make a quick hundred bucks for a blowjob.

There is massive benefit to criminalising johns and using the fines to find somewhere for those hungry kids to eat.

Prostitution is barely consensual. The prostitutes are the victims, it’s absolutely not victimless.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Is it really consensual sex if the woman has the choice between feeding her kids after selling sex or watching them go to bed hungry without selling sex?

There are many women whose marriages are little better. There are many men who sell sex. Transgender women were also overrepresented amongst sex workers (but I do not know whether this is still the case).

There is massive benefit to criminalising johns

Decriminalisation has allowed stronger policing of laws against coercion and a great reduction in those under 18 in the sex industry (because it is illegal).

Trafficked women are not consenting.

New Zealand prohibits sex work by those other than citizens and permanent residents for this very reason. Legal brothels will not let trafficked women work because they would be shut down. They are also incentivised to report illegal brothels (their competition).

Prostitution is barely consensual.

New Zealand's regime aims at harm minimisation. Prostitution is going to happen, and less harm occurs if it is done in an environment in which those involved have recourse to the law for protection against coercion and other criminality. We also permit up to two sex workers to work from a residential premises; this allows self-employment, removing brothel operators from the relationship. Not so great for the neighbours, who complain about late-night vehicle movements.

One downside of decriminalisation for sex workers is that their tax compliance in more strictly policed.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There are many women whose marriages are little better. There are many men who sell sex. Transgender women were also overrepresented amongst sex workers (but I do not know whether this is still the case).

And? How does this make sex work to avoid destitution more or less consensual?

Decriminalisation has allowed stronger policing of laws against coercion and a great reduction in those under 18 in the sex industry (because it is illegal). How? Sources?

Prostitution is barely consensual. New Zealand's regime aims at harm minimisation.

This is unrelated to the fact that prostitution is barely consensual...

What specifically minimises the harm here? How does any of this protect against rape or abuse or stds? How does any of this prevent grooming? How does any of this establish clear and accessible routes out of prostitution? How does this answer in any way my points about women in poverty having a choice between prostitution or hungry kids, and how it’s not really a choice?

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Sex workers have lower rates of STIs than the general population. Some people choose to work in the sex industry because of the high hourly pay and flexible working conditions, despite the unpleasant or distasteful work, because they prefer it over cleaning toilets for minimum wage. Reasons for wanting money can range from lifestyle to drug addiction. NZ has social welfare and fully taxpayer funded health and education, especially for kids. People leave the sex industry when they want. Prohibition does nothing to help.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

None of this is relevant to my points and totally ignores the fact that most prostitutes want out.

“ 1998 survey of 475 women who were involved in prostitution, ninety-two percent of them said they wanted to leave prostitution but couldn’t because they lack basic human services such as a home, job training, health care, counseling and treatment for drug or alcohol addiction”

“ One small study of 130 prostitutes found that 68% of the prostituted women interviewed met the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which was in the same range as combat veterans and victims of torture.”

You’re choosing to ignore this in favour of the glamorised call girl trope which isnt what’s really happening.

Do you have any responses to the points raised or just more irrelevant and unsourced feelings.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And you are completely ignoring my point that criminalisation does not reduce harm. A minority prostitute themselves because they like it over other options; in a free society, we should respect their choice, even if we do not agree with it. Most prostitute themselves through economic necessity; on this, we are in complete agreement. One proven solution is to provide the basic human services you list. One other proven solution is to decriminalise the sex industry to eliminate the worst abuses: child prostitution, slavery, trafficking, and police corruption. Criminalisation is not a solution to social deprivation. This has been discussed in depth through the legislative process in my country, including select committee enquiries, passed into legislation, and tested in practice for 17 years. Nobody is saying that prostitution is good, only that criminalisation increased harm.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

None of this explains why we shouldn’t criminalise johns and pimps.

Like, prostitutes are being harmed by the current state as another commenter in this thread mentioned. Clearly decriminalising has not made prostitution out of necessity any more consensual either.

Respecting the so-called choice to sell ones body in order to survive does not involve calling it consensual and the same as employment. People who scrub toilets don’t get ptsd from it.

[–]catoborosnonbinary 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

None of this explains why we shouldn’t criminalise johns and pimps.

Yes it does. Criminalising johns or brothel operators means that brothels go underground and become fertile ground for all manner of criminality. This is what we had before decriminalisation. How do you propose that legal brothels might work if every john faced criminal prosecution? Even street prostitution becomes more secretive because johns want to avoid prosecution. Under decriminalisation, street prostitution moved well-lit commercial areas subject to policing to prevent robbery and murder. People are much more likely to call the cops if it does not result in the loss of their business or their prosecution. Also, where do you draw the line? Sugar daddies? Tinder dates offering nice dinners?