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[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

So the dictionary, Wikipedia, Simone de Beauvoir et al are all trumped by something you pulled out of your arse?

I’m going to split my response up into a couple of sections, and the longer sections will have a TLDR at the end because I realized that I wrote way too much in response to a few of your points.

Dictionary, Wikipedia

As mentioned earlier, Merriam-Webster defines “trans woman” as a woman; however, this doesn’t actually matter, as the dictionary is not something to be used prescriptively. Words are defined by the socio-cultural context by which they are used. Similarly, to say a woman is an “adult human female” because “the dictionary says so” is fallacious reasoning by the nature of how the usage of grammar in the prescriptive sense functions linguistically speaking.

Wikipedia works in an identical fashion as any dictionary. Wikipedia cannot be used prescriptively. Wikipedia also defines “trans woman” as a woman. This does not prove that trans women are indeed women, as that argument would be logically fallacious; likewise, pointing to Wikipedia which states that a woman is an “adult human female” as evidence that this is the case is also fallacious.

TLDR: Prescriptive use of a dictionary (including Wikipedia) is a logically fallacious line of reasoning, and therefore holds no value when discussing the descriptive use of words.

Simone de Beauvoir

As for Simone de Beauvoir, her perspective on gender identity and the acceptance of transgender individuals can only be concluded in terms of inductive reasoning. This reasoning can go both ways, but neither argument for or against her alleged support of transgender people can be concluded with absolutely certainty; unless, of course, the scientific community has created a way to bring back people from the dead, in which case we could ask Beauvoir directly. That being said, here is my inductive understanding of Beauvoir’s writings:

Beauvoir would have no issue with transgender people adopting the social roles of the gender they identify with, and, effectively, becoming said gender; this is seen through her claims that there is no biological basis to being one gender or another, her writings expressing how the freedom of natal girls/women is restricted by the social role of “woman”, which is imposed on them by society, and her expressive support for the idea that males and females are socialized differently in a gendered society.

Beauvoir would likely support trans women adopting the social role of “woman” (and therefore, becoming a woman) because (1) males are not socialized to regard womanhood in a positive light (and therefore, the desire trans women have to become women does not stem from societal demand), (2) she argues that gender is not confined to any kind of biological reality (and therefore, the desire trans women have to become women have nothing to do with their state of being male), and (3) if transcendence from gendered norms is the end goal that Beauvoir desired, she would have no issue with trans women becoming women (as the desire to do so stems from the unrestricted freedom that males have and are socialized to hold, based on the previous two points).

Beauvoir would also likely support trans men adopting the social role of “man” (and therefore, becoming a man) because (1) she regards femininity as a restrictive force leading natal girls/women to be unable to pursue personal freedom, (2) Beauvoir often regarded female masculinity as a more fulfilling means to achieving personal freedom compared to female femininity (as femininity is imposed upon females by gendered society), and (3) if transcendence from gendered norms is the end goal that Beauvoir desires, she would have no issue with trans men becoming men (as the desire to do so stems from the need to break from restrictive femininity and pursue masculinity, which is the more fulfilling role in this gendered society).

TLDR: It can be inductively reasoned that Beauvoir would support the validity of transgender women and transgender men because of her belief that there is no biological basis to being one gender or another, her argument that males and females are socialized differently by a gendered society, and her writings which argue that that socio-cultural demand for females to conform to femininity leads them to be incapable of pursuing personal freedoms and fulfilling life.

Definition of “Gender”

The definition of gender as being a socio-cultural norms (gender expression) and social/gender identity is not something that was created out of thin air. It is a phenomenon that regards the socio-cultural and historical conceptual understanding of gender as the means that defines it. It is descriptive of what gender is, rather than prescriptive.

As for evidence that gender is a combination of gender expression and gender identity, we can look at the mass social movements that are happening right now. In the US, we have Black Lives Matter protests advocating for police/prison reform, legal protections for women, and social acceptance of trans people as the gender they identify as. This movement is unprecedented. Never before have we seen such widespread support of trans people in protests and in mainstream culture. We are seeing a massive shift in language while we are simultaneously questioning our understanding of gender conceptually speaking. Give it maybe a decade at most, and it is highly probably that will see dictionary definitions like “adult human female” be changed to reflect the reality of what gender descriptively is in the social context: expression, and identity. We’ve already seen a shift in language for definitions like “trans woman” and “trans man” so it doesn’t appear as if it will be much longer before the dictionary definitions don’t reflect the argument you’ve made thus far.

TLDR: Gender is partly expression and partly identity. We see this in the historical and socio-cultural usage of gender as a means to oppress females, but also a cultural phenomenon and means of social identification. That being said, we are seeing a upward trend in support of this idea, and affirmation of transgender people as the gender they identify as (and therefore are).

It's feminism's aim to rid our culture of gender

Absolutely, it certainly is. Therefore, we should eliminate the social demand to adopt the social role of one gender or another, and accept transgender people as their gender, as their acceptance is one of the primary steps we can take to eradicate gendered norms, expectations, and demands.

You claim that in such a post-gender world gender would still exist as some nebulous, non-specific, undefinable entity.

A postgenderist society would not come into fruition until gender identity is also abandoned due to its unpragmatic nature, which can only occur with the eradication of societal demands of conformity to certain gender expression. That being said, the most efficient manner to eliminate mandated gender expression is to accept transgender people, as their accept directly implies that there is no biological or societal objective truth to gender. It is simply a nonsensical idea used to oppress females, but by accepting trans people, we are removing that motive that is induced by gender in its current state. With that all being said, I’d much rather live in a purely gender-identity-based society where people have the personal freedom to pursue the gender they most identify with rather than one than forces conformity based on arbitrary expression, most prevalent in harming females.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The dictionary bit was just a repeat of what you said before. I already know you reject all sources in favour of whatever springs to your mind. Where are your sources? (btw, no one was asking for the definition of trans-woman, but woman, how many more times???)

Your whole bit on Beauvoir was just you confusing GNC with being trans, even though those are usually opposites. You simply conclude that since Beauvoir is pro GNC she must be pro-trans. Non-sequitur. In fact, quite the reverse can be deduced. If you view a trans-woman as a man then they are GNC, but as soon as you view them through the transgender lens, as their preferred sex, they are gender conforming. Gender conformity is not something any feminist advocates for.

This is exactly like taking to an MRA, they do the exact same thing. If you give them a source they just pretend the source says the exact opposite of what it actually says.

From The Second Sex: "Woman is determined not by her hormones or by mysterious instincts, but by the manner in which her body and her relation to the world are modified through the action of others than herself. The abyss that separates the adolescent boy and girl has been deliberately widened between them since earliest childhood; later on, woman could not be other than what she was made, and that past was bound to shadow her for life"

Transcribed from an interview with Beauvoir: "That formula (One is not born but made a woman) is the basis of all my theories & it's meaning is very simple: that being a woman is not a natural fact. It's a result of a certain history. There is no biological or psychological destiny that defines a woman as such. She is the product of a history, of civilisation, first of all, which has resulted in her current status. And secondary for each individual woman of her personal history in particular, that of her childhood. This determines her as a woman, creates in her something which is not at all innate, or an essence, something which has been called the "eternal feminine", or femininity. The more we study the psychology of children the deeper we delve, the more evident it becomes that baby girls are manufactured to become women. Long before a child is conscious, the way it is breastfed, or held, or rocked etc. inscribes in its body what might later appear a destiny"

To sum up, what we think of 'woman' is femininity, & femininity is a form of brainwashing of anyone female via socialisation. That's what gender identity actually is i.e. an actual identity, not a wish. Go on, interpret the polar opposite from the text.

Where is your super long nothing-burger section avoiding giving a straight definition of 'woman'?

it is highly probably that will see dictionary definitions like “adult human female” be changed to

To what? To what??? Spit it out already! Or don't you know? Why do you take issue with 'adult human female' as a definition, when there is no alternative?

Men breaking gender norms helps rid the world of gender, but men overcompensating with stereotypical hyper-femininity in order to pass as women is an obstacle to ridding the world of gender. Transgenderism isn't gender critical, it's sex critical. Sex is literally the only thing transgenderism challenges & you make no mention of it in your entire novella!

The social majority within the trans-movement are all binary trans people, specifically trans-women, specifically gender conforming trans-women. The road to gender abolition is in the opposite direction.

If trans people just accepted the sex that they are & never medically or legally transitioned, if they just resolved to be their GNC selves, would that help & hinder the feminist movement's drive to abolish gender?

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I already know you reject all sources in favour of whatever springs to your mind. Where are your sources?

If by "reject all sources" you mean, acknowledging that appealing to the Great Holy Dictionary and Our Lord and Savior Wikipedia for defining terminology in fallacious by nature, then yes, I reject your so-called "sources".

(btw, no one was asking for the definition of trans-woman, but woman, how many more times???)

I'm using the definition of "trans woman" as an example to your entire argument. If you were to say "The dictionary says trans women are women, therefore they are women" that would be fallacious reasoning. Similarly, arguing that "The dictionary says woman means adult human female, therefore trans women cannot be women" would also be fallacious. The entire argument vests itself in prescriptive use of the dictionary. If we can't move past this point about the dictionary (which you vehemently choose to rest your entire argument on), then there is no point to continuing this discussion.

All that being said, we can only inductively reason what Beauvoir might think about the transgender movement today, therefore (unless you bring her back from the dead to prove your argument) no one is going to come on top of this discussion regarding her writings. It is purely hypothesizing what her beliefs of trans people might be today, which is extrapolated from literary works.

To what? To what??? Spit it out already! Or don't you know? Why do you take issue with 'adult human female' as a definition, when there is no alternative?

Notice how you've blinded ignored my definition this entire time. I've explicitly defined gender as a combination of expression and identity. Therefore, woman is currently defined by both femininity and identity. However, I don't support the notion that women must be feminine, therefore, identity is all that remains. In other words: a woman is a person who identifies as a woman, because there is no biological basis to being a woman, nor should there be a mandated role of "woman" for people to adopt. This is what we are seeking to get rid of, we both agree that expectations of femininity must go.

This is exactly like taking to an MRA

Acknowledging that extrapolating the beliefs of a dead person's writings in the modern context can only be inductively reasoned, and therefore, cannot ever be a complete fact-of-the-matter makes me a men's rights advocate? Notice I've yet to throw an ad hominem your way.

Have a great day. I'm not really interested in this conversation anymore.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Dictionary > the Great Holy shit you pulled from your ass, Wikipedia > the Great Holy shit you pulled from your ass, The late great Simone de Beauvoir > the Great Holy shit you pulled from your ass – SHOCKER

Still no definition of WOMAN, saying "but I pulled a definition of gEnDeR out of my ass" x1000 still isn't a definition of woman, sorry.

There is nothing beyond female & femininity, that's why you're incapable of defining said thing or finding a source to back up anything you've said. Femininity = social identity, personal identity is what makes you a unique individual. These are scientific facts, which you pretend don't exist.

Hard to believe I know, but feminist theory & scientific consensus > your uninformed opinion

[–]transwomanHesitantly QT? 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hard to believe I know, but feminist theory & scientific consensus > your uninformed opinion

Ironic.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh really? What parts of any of my comments have been just my opinion? My own opinion differs from what I have repeated in my replies, but I realise that no one is interested in what some rando online thinks, which is why I limit what I say about gender identity to the consensus. A shame you're incapable of doing the same.

Gender is a term used in biology, sociology, psychology & social-psychology etc. & the cause, effect & definition outlined in these respective disciplines is concordant with what I have repeated in my replies to you. Which scientific disciplines are concordant with your prevarications on the topic of gender?

Femininity is a gender, gender identity is a social identity, gender identity is caused by socialisation. These are all facts. Pretending otherwise won't change that.