Both: What are your thoughts on surrogacy?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]yishengqingwa666 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Women are not breeding slaves and rent-a-wombs for rich assholes.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I differ from most GC people in that I don't think its automatically bad. I don't believe it should be allowed to happen internationally because it seems like a huge way to exploit impoverished women. But domestically, I think it can be ethical under certain circumstances. There are some women who do surrogacy multiple times and keep in touch with the babies and families. I believe that as long as the kids know the truth and everyone is happy at the end, no harm is done.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing! I like to think it can be ethical in the correct circumstances. I feel like it has to be a actual choice and not something a woman is feeling coerced to do, even for economic reasons. I agree with you that international is more likely not to be that way. My husband and I thought about it, but we both felt more comfortable just pursuing adoption. Honesty is always important in any situation like this.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think adoption is great, but it's difficult. There are very few babies, and most people want a new baby. It's not like decades ago when there was a surplus of unwanted children and prospective parents could just walk into an orphanage and pick out a newborn. There's also discrimination in adoption to think about.

None of that makes surrogacy the best choice, but it's understandable why people do it. Especially single men or male couples because they can't have a biological kid otherwise.

[–]just_lesbian_things 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I don't see a reason for it. Adoption is available. I think most of the surrogate people have this "MY GENES" mindset that I find really off-putting, but at the end of the day, most parents share that mindset, so I try not to judge them too harshly for it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing! I’ve thought about it that way too. Part of me feels like it would be selfish in a world where so many children still need families.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It’s often less about ~muh genes~ and more about recognising a lack of ability to manage caring for a child with something like reactive attachment disorder. It’s not like these children come without trauma.

[–]just_lesbian_things 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Not all adopted children have reactive attachment disorder, not all adopted children have trauma. I don't think people are entitled to a child. I can't stop people from reproducing, but I don't think they have a positive right to it in the form of surrogacy. It's ridiculous.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

not all adopted children have trauma

My husband and I have been through some counseling since we are looking to adopt and they’ve told us that there is always trauma and that we need to be prepared to help our child when that hurt comes up.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/adoption-related-trauma-a_b_10492058

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My mom was adopted, but as a newborn. I don't think she has any trauma. She always knew she was adopted, though.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That’s wonderful to hear! I guess it makes sense it would be be less likely for there to be trauma for a newborn (which is what we are looking to adopt as well). I feel like they might be exaggerating just so you are prepared.

[–]just_lesbian_things 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I stand corrected.

Well if that's what qualifies for trauma these days, you've no business being a parent if you can't even deal with that.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nobody is entitled to a child, but it’s wildly unfair to act like it’s simply people narcissistically insisting on spreading their special genes. I don’t support surrogacy either, just tired of being one of many characterised as some selfish monster for recognising adopted children frequently have challenges I’m not best suited to handle. If you can find an adopted child who’s not experienced some trauma you’re basically finding a unicorn.

[–]luckystar 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Basically never acceptable. I'm sure we could contrive some soap opera type storyline where some woman's dying wish is to have their sister carry their baby or something like that, but the reality is that in over 99% of cases, it's a poor woman literally being used as a baby incubator because she desperately needs money.

It reminds me of "wet nursing" during the slavery era.

Women's reproductive functions should not be commodified.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Surrogacy critical - I don't think the state should step into it, I don't think hospitals should generally facilitate it - I think people should be able to make babies the old fashioned way, with someone they've made an arrangement or agreement with - and if that person decides they feel a deep connection to the baby and decides it's theirs, the other people are SoL.

Definitely don't support surrogacy "Middle people"

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

LGB people can't really do it old fashioned way.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Does this entitle them to surrogacy? Or to have a child at all?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not having a child is one of pressure points on LGB people by their parents and society, especially on lesbians. It does not make anyone entitled (same way as straight people are not entitled to have kids), however adopting a kid or, in some cases, surrogacy can be a way for LGB people to experience parenthood they could want but could not achieve the "classic" way (as you can't opt out of being gay or lesbian, as sexuality is innate and immutable) or parents this way can get their grandchildren (this way it is a child abuse, thought, similar to forced pregnancy or denial of abortion rights). So with full agreement of all sides, no lies to kid and no denial to mother to stay in touch or visit kids, that can be an option in some cases. And it should not be paywalled as well, because then it will become a sort of prostitution, when rich are using bodies of women.

While for lesbians there is hope on their own kids, as experiments on mice and monkeys shown that ovums can be changed in a way to interract with other ovum and make a birth to a healthy offspring (and this way will give birth only to females).

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It being a pressure isn’t a reason to take part in the surrogacy system which is predatory and harmful to women. Charitable surrogacy might be okay but it’s not the majority of surrogacy cases.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Bi people definitely can procreate the old-fashioned way. Lesbians can conceive a way that's somewhat old fashioned by now - using DIY insemination via a syringe with donor sperm. No medical intervention needed for what used to be called the old "turkey baster" method, & there need not be any onerous costs. I know women who had babies this way in the 70s & 80s.

Of the LGB (& the T & the Q & all the rest), it's really only gay men who can't procreate the old-fashioned way - although some have historically, & I'd guess some still do. However, gay men who want to become fathers still have the option of doing so humanely by forming cooperative, co-parenting arrangements with women that don't involve exploiting women as egg-factories & "gestators" & putting women through the additional health risks that both hormonally-stimulated egg harvesting & surrogacy entail. Like what Andrew Solomon & his husband have done.

IMO, it would be better if gay men who want to become fathers tried to come up with expansive & inventive family, household & childrearing arrangements that would allow them to parents in partnership with women. But instead, many gay men like Anderson Cooper, Elton John, Ricky Martin & that awful misogynistic designer/house rehab guy from TV are just using their wealth & power to take advantage of advances in "reproductive technologies" & lax laws to exploit & use women in new ways. At best, these men see women as their servants; at worse, as breeding stock.

Also, a lot of people have health conditions, innate or acquired over time, & other life circumstances that make it impossible for them to have children the old-fashioned way - or in any other way. Doesn't give them the right to exploit women, to in effect purchase babies, & to do the morally questionable act of creating a child with the intent of removing it from its mother at or right after birth, depriving the child of what should be seen as a basic human right for every newborn - the right to PP bonding with, and nuturing by, one's mother, particularly in the very crucial time of new life known as "the fourth trimester."

Not everyone gets everything we want in life. In fact, the vast majority of people do not see their dreams & desires fulfilled; disappointment & thwarted longings are just part of the human condition.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How can bisexual people not do it the old-fashioned way?

But I know plenty of LG people who did it the old-fashioned way.

What exactly do you think the old-fashioned way is?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

plenty of LG people who did it the old-fashioned way.

And how exactly gay men did it within themselves?

How can bisexual people not do it the old-fashioned way?

Bisexual people are not always making man+woman couples. It can be man+man or woman+woman.

What exactly do you think the old-fashioned way is?

Same way as any straight people doing kids, no? It is possible for lesbians to use services of sperm banks, tho. However, it is not very "old fashioned" way either and more modern thing (as those banks started spreading only around 20-30 years ago).

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm already addressed this in my first comment. If you want to ask a specific question, please feel free.

[–]tamingthemindradfem (GC) 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unjustified.