Why is GC critical of how women celebrate their sexuality?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

https://ovarit.com/o/WomensLiberation/1402/can-we-please-talk-about-cardi-b-s-wap

This thread is criticizing Cardi B's WAP video "What I am, is a person who doesn't understand how a woman actively participating in her own degradation, actively participating in a misogynistic culture that oppresses women on the basis of their sex, is at all empowering." You don't get to police how another woman chooses to celebrate her sexuality.

"Cardi B no doubt is an active participant and making a mint off this music/video. Does the fact that she's benefitting monetarily from this song make it empowering? Can a person be a willing participant in their own exploitation? Does monetary gain from degradation negate the fact that she's being degraded?" You don't get to determine what is empowering to another woman.

"And this is where gaslighting comes in - when any woman who asks questions like I'm asking is immediately told she is racist." God forbid people have a different opinion than you. It's not gasligiting.

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[–]worried19 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's disgusting, and women like her drag down the rest of the female sex when they engage in self-degradation.

That said, it's a free world. But surely any feminist should be able to understand why women celebrating the patriarchy and demeaning themselves for the male gaze are considered harmful. This woman's actions have an effect on how the rest of us are perceived and treated. I think women have a responsibility to their fellow women and especially future generations of girls not to promote misogyny.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

It's disgusting, and women like her drag down the rest of the female sex when they engage in self-degradation.

Well it's her body and she doesn't find it degrading. It's like when people say a woman who openly embraces sexuality grew up without a father, doesn't value herself, AKA "slut shaming".

I think women have a responsibility to their fellow women and especially future generations of girls not to promote misogyny.

No one has a responsibility to anyone.

[–]worried19 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The lyrics to that song are disgusting and feature multiple derogatory slurs and celebrate women sexually degrading themselves for men.

https://genius.com/Cardi-b-wap-lyrics

I don't know the details of this woman's background, but she clearly did not have a parent (of either sex) who taught her to respect herself. What mother or father in their right mind would be happy about their daughter going around calling herself a whore and bragging about men spitting in her mouth or choking on a man's penis?

No one has a responsibility to anyone.

Well, I think that's a sad way to look at the world. Nihilism is not appealing to me.

[–]anfd 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Probably because some of the ways some women choose to celebrate their sexuality is, at the same time, pandering to male fantasies, reinforcing harmful stereotypes etc. The tension here between "the freedom to choose" and "to choose freely something that's harmful to others" is real and there is no logical solutions, only ones that are decided in political struggle.

The situation is not unlike the one in the labour movement, where the strikers want to prevent some individuals — called either "those willing to work", or "scabs", depending on your political views — from crossing the picket line.

Actually, it's not unlike any other conflict of interest between the individual and the group. Some will think individual choice must rule over everything else (provided the choice "doesn't harm others", where, though, the the meaning of "harm" is not at all clear), while some will think the collective has the right to limit the individual in severe ways for the benefit of the majority. And of course there's the whole gamut between these two extremes.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

pandering to male fantasies

To me that's like saying short shorts distract boys, or asking about a rape victim "what was she wearing?"

Actually, it's not unlike any other conflict of interest between the individual and the group. Some will think individual choice must rule over everything else (provided the choice "doesn't harm others", where, though, the the meaning of "harm" is not at all clear), while some will think the collective has the right to limit the individual in severe ways for the benefit of the majority. And of course there's the whole gamut between these two extremes.

I make choices for myself, not for others. My family for instance is not happy with my a choice in significant other, but I'm making the choice, and should be able to freely express her sexuality.

[–]comradeconradical 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"I make choices for myself, not for others"

This is so easy to say when you ignore the larger impact certain choices perpetuate.

Obviously it's important to make choices for yourself, but don't pretend that all choices are wholly good and unarguable.

Further, yes we can say let everyone make their own choices, but we can still critically analyze these choices. We don't choose things in a vacuum.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That song is not celebrating sexuality, it is straight up calling for prostitution. And there nothing empowering in being used.

She is not singing "I am powerful and sexual", she is singing "I am sexual and people will pay me money for that". And calling for "Ride a dick if they buy you a car". She is not empowering herself by throwing money on men, so they are doing all her sexual fantasies, while enjoying her sexuality, she is using her sexuality for money gains, and is used herself. And almost all feminism branches, except neo-liberal and maybe few small ones, are against such exploitation of self (and women in general).

Here some more discussion about that: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/63a5/wet_ass_pussy_cardi_b_song_being_called_empowering/

If lyrics was something like "I am rich and throwing money on those man-bitches, I am sexy, they want me, but I chose only the best with the longest dicks, I'll buy a car for that man-whore if he makes me orgasm" - then most likely feminists would not be so critical about song, and maybe would even call that as empowering. However, lyrics are just the opposite, she is being used and paid for her sexuality, men are enjoying her in ways they like, even chocking and hitting her, and she is fine with that if they pay good money for such behaviour.

Sorry for using slurs and swears, I am just using words she used herself describing herself in that song.

[–]FlanJam 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Idk anything about cardi b so I'm missing a lot of context here just fyi. But in general, I think women often face this dilemma between freedom of individual expression vs doing things that aren't necessarily good for us because it has become ingrained by society. When it comes to sexuality, where's the line between self expression and objectification? Just because a woman chooses to sexualize herself, doesn't mean its empowering. Women choose things that are bad for us all the time, we've been taught by society to do this. But by the same token, restricting women from expressing ourselves isn't very feminist either. Its tough to find the right balance, but I don't think going hard in either direction is a great idea.

I'll also add that, as a lesbian, I'm kinda lucky in this regard. Because lesbian sexuality excludes men, I think its theoretically easier for us to express our sexuality without objectifying ourselves to men. One of the silver linings to being a lesbian I guess lol.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think if you'd read the lyrics, you'd be different opinion. However, you better don't, to not lose faith in humanity.

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lol, maybe so. I've never been particularly interested in her music, so I probably won't listen to it haha.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Me too, but I've read lyrics and checked video, when discussion was raised on /s/GenderCritical.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

Just because a woman chooses to sexualize herself, doesn't mean its empowering.

It's not empowering to you, but it's empowering to her and that's what matters. Maybe she finds it empowering because she can freely express her sexuality without being told she doesn't value herself or whatever? That's her right. You don't have to like her music or her video, or do the same things she does. Only she can decide what's empowering to herself.

[–]FlanJam 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

With all due respect I think you're misreading what I wrote. Like I said, idk much about cardi b. I don't dislike her music or video because I've never seen it. Nor am I criticizing her or accusing her of sexualizing herself. I'm speaking very generally about the broader topic. I'm just saying its more complicated than simply saying "expressing sexuality is bad" OR "you can't criticize her choice because its her choice". As I mentioned in my previous post, finding a balance is tricky and there's no easy answer.

But since you brought it up, I do wanna speak briefly about this point:

It's not empowering to you, but it's empowering to her and that's what matters. ... Only she can decide what's empowering to herself.

Perhaps we're speaking past each other because we seem to be using "empowering" differently. When I say empowering, I'm talking about something that gives you more agency in society. For example, having an education is typically empowering because it gives you more opportunities. So under my usage of empowering, what's empowering to me IS empowering to others as well. Because things that are empowering are objectively so. The way you're using "empowering" seems to be different, which is fine, but I think perhaps that's where some confusion is coming from.

[–]lavender_menace 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I say empowering, I'm talking about something that gives you more agency in society. For example, having an education is typically empowering because it gives you more opportunities. So under my usage of empowering, what's empowering to me IS empowering to others as well.

That’s my understanding of empowering as well. Empowerment also has ties to groups or communities imho. If it benefits or elevates a group of people it’s empowering. It gives them power. Like when women fought for 30 years to have public toilets for women as well, that was empowering because it gave women freedom from the “urinary leash” enabling them to travel further from their homes. Prostitution doesn’t empower women, it may benefit some tiny portion of individuals, who are capable of choosing their own clients and doing it on their own terms every single time, but to the majority prostitution is exploitation, that robs them of power and physical and mental resources.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think it’s possible for people to feel empowered by things that are bad? Or is anything empowering good?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And what about all the women who are not empowered by this one woman’s feelings? What about the girls who see this woman “celebrate sexuality” via pandering to male gaze and normalising sex in exchange for goods? Is she also empowered by the message “prostitution is nifty fun!”?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

All that matters is Cardi B is empowered. I also know many women who say they feel empowered by this. Though if a woman doesn't feel empowered, she is free not to listen to Cardi B or sing those songs.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So the little girls who receive a disempowering message don’t matter cause cardi says she’s empowered. Lol righto. Im sure prostituted women are super empowered by songs about trading sex for goods as well.

[–]luckystar 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't care as much about this kind of thing. I am extremely anti "sex work" but that's because the entire industry is coercive and predatory and I've yet to be convinced it can be conducted in an ethical manner. I don't have any ill will or disrespect for the women involved, the problem is the industry. This tumblr (ugh) pretty much sums it up for me: https://helshades.tumblr.com/post/175297954562/kurukka-a-room-of-my-own-agneswsblog

[–]DogeWalker 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You don't get to police how another woman chooses to celebrate her sexuality.

I think "policing" implies actually having some control, and I don't think a post with 25 comments can exert any control over how any woman, let alone Cardi B, chooses to celebrate her sexuality.

[–]yishengqingwa666 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How does performing degrading stripper moves, accepting misogynist slurs and pandering to porn-sick males equate "celebrating her sexuality"?

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Russel Brand of all people showed a sufficient understanding of feminism 101 and did an ok commentary - https://twitter.com/rustyrockets/status/1294359385741950976

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's really disappointing that there's almost no other criticism out there that doesn't come from conservative sources.

[–]zephyranthes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What's "celebrate"? What's "sexuality"? What's "police" in this context, for that matter? What's "empowering"? Please talk facts.